Chipping a C220CDi - worth it?

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I do agree that this is more complex than that (almost irrespectively what "that" is :) ).

But I did not follow certain points above. Like the power to weight ratio is improved for max power and the engine would not be used at anything close to max power or even max torque at those minor speed corrections.

The key has to be more efficient combustion. I cannot see fuel efficiency increase if combustion efficiency is not improved. But the question is how combustion efficiency can be improved from the factory settings.

I'm not engine expert but I believe the key is to optimise the combustion process towards efficiency and compromise emissions. The free parameters are fuel injection timing (assuming no variable valve timing) and the amount of air (on a diesel more air than needed to burn the fuel can be used). What ever the details are, the only option is to compromise emissions (or perhaps engine longevity too), otherwise the factory would have used the same settings to reach better figures.

The maximum power and torque are a bit different thing but emissions are a key there too, engine longevity compromise starts to be another key.

I'm afraid that car engines these days are designed like most consumer products, being marketing led, and the optimum process settings are not the prime objective. Just look at the fact that MB market the CD220 and 250 BE engines, that are just mapped differently. Same with Audi/VW etc.

They also have to consider longevity and emissions, but they are after getting the best results from the standard EU tests, not producing a car that has optimum efficiency throughout the rev range, or in real world conditions.

This keeps all the tuning and chip companies very busy, and the results are very worthwhile.

A better power to weight ratio does have an impact, again only in real world conditions, increasing the power in the same car can be compared against lowering the weight in the car with the same power.
 
Maybe one of the best examples of the benefits of improved power to weight ratio helping economy was the real world test of Prius vs. BMW 3 Litre Diesel, where the BM returned better mpg on the overall trip. Plus I hate to admit that I did a bit of caravan towing 20 years ago, and soon found out that 2L cars were more economical towers than 1.6L.

It's mainly due to being able to keep in a higher gear, and change up earlier. In an underpowered car, you can tend to push down the right pedal too quickly and too far when trying to accelerate, as could happen when trying to maintain a fast pace on a busy uphill stretch of motorway, even when endevouring to maintain a steady speed.

Of course upping the power can increase noise, and some testers claim the BE 250 to be noisier than the BE 220, another reason (plus working to bhp limits in some countries) why manufacturers don't tune their engines for optimum mpg efficiency.
 
It is not right to compare 1.6 litre cars against 2 litre cars if the engine technology is different. In practise a small engine gives better fuel economy compared to a higher power one. This is because engines reach better efficiency at close to full load (3/4 or so), trhough the typical rpm range. See the fuel efficiency figures for your car model with different engines.

The assumption that a high power engine does not consume a lot because pulling the car is easier for it is a common misunderstanding if the engines are fully comparable otherwise. I think I have posted fuel efficiency charts at the forum before.

I still don't get your examples about power to weight ratio. You cannot compare Prius to another model when we are talking about the exact same car with the exact same weight, before and after chiptuning. The power to weight ratio would change but the fuel efficiency does not get improved from the better ratio, it must come from the improved combustion efficiency.

I completely agree that the 220CDI against the 250CDI is a marketing issue (price differentiation). ECU mapping (not sensor fooling) can make the smaller behave just like the bigger. I thought this was obvious and we would be talking about chip tuning the 250, or chip tuning the 220 towards higher figures than the 250 has standard.

I think this is one of those discussions where we have difficulties finding any convergence, better to leave it here.
 
Eh sorry to rain on folks parade here but a 250cdi isnt just a remapped 220cdi. It has a whole 2nd turbo charger whereas the 220cdi has one. Its not like the V6 280 and 320cdi at all. The 250cdi is a substancially different engine to the 220cdi car.
 
I think this is one of those discussions where we have difficulties finding any convergence, better to leave it here.

Hey, it's all just a good fun debate isn't it?

What's the prob with opposing views? but in fact we're both approaching it from different standpoints and I think there is convergence potential!

The main thrust of my points are that theoretical calculations don't always translate into everyday results.

Even in the same car with same engine and just a different map, a particular speed and road condition could make one operate in 4th gear, and the other 5th gear. IMHO the one operating in 5th (the one with the higher power output/torque) would be returning better mpg. If that's not true, then I'd be very pleased to be helped to see the error of my ways.
 
Eh sorry to rain on folks parade here but a 250cdi isnt just a remapped 220cdi. It has a whole 2nd turbo charger whereas the 220cdi has one. Its not like the V6 280 and 320cdi at all. The 250cdi is a substancially different engine to the 220cdi car.

I was referring to the new W212 E Class Blue Efficiency engines here, that are the ones with the duff injectors. I was given to understand by my dealer that there is no mechanical difference between the 220 and 250 on these new engines, and the point has also been confimed if I remember correctly on Pottsy's Civinfo forum.

However I'd be pleased for the issue to be resolved either way by someone who has no doubt of the facts - I'm only working on snippets I've picked up.
 
I was referring to the new W212 E Class Blue Efficiency engines here, that are the ones with the duff injectors. I was given to understand by my dealer that there is no mechanical difference between the 220 and 250 on these new engines, and the point has also been confimed if I remember correctly on Pottsy's Civinfo forum.

However I'd be pleased for the issue to be resolved either way by someone who has no doubt of the facts - I'm only working on snippets I've picked up.

I have no doubt

Mercedes-Benz E-class (W212)

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The E250CDI engine is actually a star of the range. Don't be fooled by its numerical designation, this 4-cylinder diesel engine actually displaces 2.1 liters. It can be available in different states of tune (136hp for E200CDI or 170hp for E220CDI), but only E250CDI gets 2000-bar common-rail piezo injection and twin-turbochargers. A small turbo enters operation from very low rpm and a big turbo takes over at high rev to provide full boost. No wonder it produces an impressive output of 204 horsepower and a V8-rivaling maximum torque of 369 lb-ft. Even though it is paired with an outdated Mercedes 5-speed automatic - sometimes not even M-B can ignore cost pressure - the E250CDI can do 148 mph and 0-60 mph acceleration in 7 seconds. It virtually makes the 231hp six-cylinder E350CDI superfluous. The only downside is a slight diesel clatter at startup and an uninspiring drone under hard acceleration. Under part-load, however, it runs perfectly.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Simples :thumb:
 
I have no doubt

Mercedes-Benz E-class (W212)

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The E250CDI engine is actually a star of the range. Don't be fooled by its numerical designation, this 4-cylinder diesel engine actually displaces 2.1 liters. It can be available in different states of tune (136hp for E200CDI or 170hp for E220CDI), but only E250CDI gets 2000-bar common-rail piezo injection and twin-turbochargers. A small turbo enters operation from very low rpm and a big turbo takes over at high rev to provide full boost. No wonder it produces an impressive output of 204 horsepower and a V8-rivaling maximum torque of 369 lb-ft. Even though it is paired with an outdated Mercedes 5-speed automatic - sometimes not even M-B can ignore cost pressure - the E250CDI can do 148 mph and 0-60 mph acceleration in 7 seconds. It virtually makes the 231hp six-cylinder E350CDI superfluous. The only downside is a slight diesel clatter at startup and an uninspiring drone under hard acceleration. Under part-load, however, it runs perfectly.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Simples :thumb:


I still need more I'm afraid. See below.............

Meet the executive saloon that’s more economical than a Ford Fiesta! This is the Mercedes E220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY – the latest and greenest version of the three-pointed star’s four-door limousine.

Thanks to a sophisticated 168bhp 2.1-litre twin-turbo diesel, tweaked aerodynamics and low-rolling-resistance tyres, this super-green E-Class can return 53.3mpg combined. Incredibly, that makes it 1mpg more frugal than a Fiesta 1.25.





I also understood that the 220 also has the twin turbos. I think we need something oficial from an MB source! :dk:
 
That's all very well and good, but who should I contact if we are thinking about a quality remap in the South of the UK? :D
 
I still need more I'm afraid. See below.............

Meet the executive saloon that’s more economical than a Ford Fiesta! This is the Mercedes E220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY – the latest and greenest version of the three-pointed star’s four-door limousine.

Thanks to a sophisticated 168bhp 2.1-litre twin-turbo diesel, tweaked aerodynamics and low-rolling-resistance tyres, this super-green E-Class can return 53.3mpg combined. Incredibly, that makes it 1mpg more frugal than a Fiesta 1.25.





I also understood that the 220 also has the twin turbos. I think we need something oficial from an MB source! :dk:

Mercedes-Benz UK - New E-Class Saloon - Technical data

Compare 220cdi with 250cdi.Think you are right, please accept my appologies. MB site lists them both as twin turbos but am sure this isnt the case. Too many conflicting peices of info.
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Celtic Tuning

That's all very well and good, but who should I contact if we are thinking about a quality remap in the South of the UK? :D


Celtic Tuning did a great job on my Civic 2.2 from 143 to 192 bhp.

They generally come to you, and do a car specific remap.
 
oops just go West-tuning they are great, they got nearly 50bhp out of my W211 and they do it the right way.. rolling road before and after..
 
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I think I'd rather go to somewhere with a rolling road.
That way at least you can see over what rev range the extra power & torque have been given.

My personal preference to tuning would be to have a wide rev range of torque increase, at the sacrifice of a higher maximum value.
 
Yeah, and what's most interesting is that both models have exactly the same CO2 and mpg figures. Could this be that at the conditions of the EU tests, both cars are operating at exactly the same parameters in the ECU. Surely it would be too much of a coincidence for the figures to be identicle otherwise?

They cannot be, one of the sources is wrong. The ECU's will be set up differently to allow for different torque and peak power and as such fueling.

Easier still, you have a 220cdi. Pop the bonnet and count the turbo's :eek:
 
They cannot be, one of the sources is wrong. The ECU's will be set up differently to allow for different torque and peak power and as such fueling.

Easier still, you have a 220cdi. Pop the bonnet and count the turbo's :eek:

Blimey never mind the injectors, if I've paid for 2 turbos, I expect 2 turbos, so they'd have to swap it for a 250 should mine only have one ;)
 
Can you recally what the prices were by any chance? :D

Usually about £300-350 I think from Celtic. For some engines they do an 'eMotion' device (a sort of OBD Scanner) that stores the map, along with your oem map, and you can switch between the two quite easily. They are about £400, and each map (you can have a few to choose from (power vs. economy) cost about £100.

However I'd never think of remapping my W212 until the injector issues are long gone and forgotten - couldn't risk the warranty :eek:)
 
Can you recally what the prices were by any chance? :D

Normally it's between £500-£600 but i've done about 4 cars with them so I managed to get a discount and paid £400 for my W211.

But I don't really mind paying for quality rather than just a quick job.

It takes 4 to 5 hours for the ECU remap but they will give you a car for the day if you ask...

Hope that helps.
 
Blimey never mind the injectors, if I've paid for 2 turbos, I expect 2 turbos, so they'd have to swap it for a 250 should mine only have one ;)

Get back to us with your count. I suspect You'll have one but MB say two.

Get a V6 if you can, they are very nice and reliable.
 

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