CL600 - do ex-owners regret owning or selling?

[gramey]

I do wonder sometimes if Americans fascination with modifying their cars is due to the lamentable performance and handling of their home grown products, certainly up until recent years. It as always a mystery as to how they managed to squeeze so few horsepower out so many cc's and the suspension and brakes were still based on the stage coach only changing fairly recently under the onslaught of european and far eastern cars.As for Taverish as his video says his SL55 was always bought as a project car starting with the cheapest one he could find and it clearly helps to have a four post lift in your garage.
There was a n early reference in this thread poking fun at the low power output of the Daimler Double Six compared to the CL600 but you have to remember that engine was a cost cutting production exercise and was based on a 1960's design. The original engine had double overhead cams and 502 bhp but by the time the engine went into the saloon Jaguar were owned by British Leyland, the least said about which the better. I had a Jaguar XJ12 Sovereign and the performance wasn't starling but it was silky smooth and would cruise effortlessly at 120 mph with barely a whisper.
The Mercedes V12 wasn't built with an accountant pulling the strings and they're definitely no slouch, an S600 floored it away from the lights in front of me a couple weeks ago and it wasn't slow and sounded nice with it, at least from the outside.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

There was an early reference in this thread poking fun at the low power output of the Daimler Double Six compared to the CL600 but you have to remember that engine was a cost cutting production exercise and was based on a 1960's design. The original engine had double overhead cams and 502 bhp but by the time the engine went into the saloon Jaguar were owned by British Leyland, the least said about which the better.

Am I reading that right, Daimler Double Six originally had 502 BHP?

 

[gramey]

Am I reading that right, Daimler Double Six originally had 502 BHP?

No the XJ12 & Double Six engine was derived from the quad cam V12 of the ill fated XJ13 race car which produced 502 bhp from it's 5.0 litre normally aspirated engine, in 1966!

 

[alabbasi]

I do wonder sometimes if Americans fascination with modifying their cars is due to the lamentable performance and handling of their home grown products, certainly up until recent years. It as always a mystery as to how they managed to squeeze so few horsepower out so many cc's

I'm guessing that you're talking about the 70's to the early 90's. There were were a couple of things going on. Before 1972, cars were rated by a different HP rating SAE Gross which was the power an engine produced without any accessories installed. This was replaced by SAE and many cars got a big drop in power by just the change in measurement.
The other big difference was caused by legislation which demanded cleaner gas from the exhaust pipes the result was the same engines being produced with reduced compression ratio so that they could run unleaded, the use of EGR and having catalytic converters the size of a gallon can of paint (called thermal reactors).

Manufacturers tried to overcome the loss in power by increasing displacement but it was a losing battle.

The problem was not just limited to American cars and many imported cars had the same problem. A 1983 Porsche 928S2 in the the UK made 310hp. The US version made 230hp. A Mercedes Benz 380SL made 210hp in Europe and 155hp in the US. This is why grey market imports are so desirable in the US.

Technology caught up in the 90's with modern ignition, injection and variable valve timing that allowed higher performance engines to meet US emissions regulations and now it's a wash. American performance cars are now producing more power per $ than any other any other country. Why do they still use higher displacement engines? Because American buyers want to drive their 450hp Corvette for 100k miles without changing spark plugs, they want to get 28 US mpg (34 mpg UK) and have it serviced by the US equivalent of Kwikfit.

The XK13 is probably not a fair comparison. Bob Norwood was breaking land speed records in the 80's using Ferrari 288 GTO's that had their power plants ripped out and a small block chevy in its place. It would not be too hard or expensive for someone to build a 500hp small block engine in their home garage.

I think that most people convert their ABC suspension to coil overs for the same reason that most people converted Jaguars to Chevy power plants in the 70's and 80's. They just do not understand the system and for that reason they don't want to deal with it. I suspect that it would be cheaper to maintain an ABC system over the years than what it costs to do that conversion. Furthermore, when these cars become rare and desirable (which is a way away, but will happen), people would not touch the converted cars with a 50ft barge pole.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Am I reading that right, Daimler Double Six originally had 502 BHP?

Let's not get carried away here, the first V12 was a racing engine for LeMans for the XJ13. It can claim to be the predecessor to the Daimler Double Six but that one (sic: only one ever made) XJ13 engine was something very different, and was certainly not the 1970's production engine.

The 1972 Daimler Double Six (below) had 300bhp, which struggled through three (sic) gears to get the two tonne car up to 60mph in about nine seconds. Fast for it's era, but not by today's standards

Roll forward to 1995 and the much better made Daimler Double Six, which very few bought, still had less than 320bhp, waddled through four !!! gears up to 60mph in 7.5 seconds, and was still a car for impressing people on Park Lane rather than for driving to Cannes in a day. A second faster to 60 than a Golf GTI's 115bhp, for sure, but "Different times."

 

[oldguy57]

I think Daimler was the first to produce a V12 and that was before 1900. Several US manufacturers produced V12s before mid 19c as well. It's surprising how long V12s have been around.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The first V12 Daimler Double Six was made form 1926 until WWII. The 1970's model name was a deliberate reference to that car.

Hispano-Suiza made its own automotive V12 shortly afterwards, based on its aero engine - as owned by Hugo Drax, the card cheat, cad and all round bounder, in Ian Fleming's Moonraker.

 

[C43AMG]

I saw that model last year at the Concours Hampton Court

 

[gramey]

Well personally I loved mine, it may not have been the quickest four door saloon but it was definitely a quiet and comfortable car with what I thought was some style, although a complete birds nest under the bonnet.

 

[alabbasi]

300HP in the 70's and 80's was not something to be sneezed out. We need to appreciate that when Jaguar produced their V12 , the only other cars with them were Italian , exotic and had names ending with 'i'. Remember that this little short stroke V12 could rev to 6500rpm and had really high compression ratio. With the right gearing, I think that it would have made a good power plant for a sports car.

The TH400 was a fantastic transmission for it's day (as was the 4l60E in the later cars). If there's anything that Americans know what do really well, it's building automatic transmissions and air conditioning systems. The guy whom I bought my 75 XJ12C builds 5 and 6 speed manual conversions using tremec transmissions. He tells me that the conversion completely transforms the car. It wasn't really until the mid 90's that luxury auto makers made 300hp the standard for their top of the line cars. Jaguar was way ahead of the game.

 

[ChrisCLS55]

I saw a lovely one on the M6 yesterday evening, black, sounded lovely. Wonder if it was anyone’s on here? It had a private reg, I think the driver was Asian/mixed race. We both kind of nodded when we passed each other. I deliberately joined his lane to have a proper look. Lovely car, such a huge road presence.

 

[french]

Here's my old one, Daimler Double Six Vandam Plas,Coral pink Black everflex roof.
Avge 13mpg round the houses, as I recall it was approx 275 bhp, mine was the 4 carburettor model.

I also had the Efi V12 in a XJS that did feel quicker but the Vandam Plas was a floater.

 

[alabbasi]

Interesting that none on the Jaguar V12 engine bays were of cars that had a/c.

My 75 XJ12C is over on the right and the CL65 can be seen from the left. There's also a 94 XJS V12 6L Convertible tucked away out of the picture.