EV Acceleration + Idiot - Experience = Dangerous?

[Deleted member 126251]

No one ever said they’d be cheaper forever though, the government would never allow that.

There’s less than 5% cobalt in a Tesla battery and new batteries are in development which contain zero cobalt. How about the devastation caused by oil extraction? Is there always fair and safe labour involved?

Have you given up your mobile phone, laptop, and tablet? These all have cobalt in them and the disposal and recycling of these is a far bigger concern than EV batteries…

That is an absurd comparison.

There is a hell of a lot more cobalt in a car battery array than in a phone or laptop. There are about 8000 cells in a Tesla Plaid array.

Fossil fuel extraction was the only real source of power for centuries and for a large part of that time, mankind was totally ignorant of the multiple down sides (to health, evironment etc) of using fossil fuels. We’ve yet to discover what the impact of EVs is going to be on future generations.

Most of the EV 'virtue signaller's' cars are still be charged with electricity generathed by non renewables.

It is absolutely meaningless to say "look how bad fossil fuels are/were”.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

One thing people never consider when comparing the relative costs for ICE or electric is the cost of all the bloody coffees you'd have to buy while waiting for your car to charge. If there are two of you travelling, it could get expensive!

Time spent waiting for an EV to charge is life down the drain. It would drive me crazy to sit at some filthy motorway services waiting for my car to charge.

 

[ALFAitalia]

That is an absurd comparison.

There is a hell of a lot more cobalt in a car battery array than in a phone or laptop. There are about 8000 cells in a Tesla Plaid array.

Fossil fuel extraction was the only real source of power for centuries and for a large part of that time, mankind was totally ignorant of the multiple down sides (to health, evironment etc) of using fossil fuels. We’ve yet to discover what the impact of EVs is going to be on future generations.

Most of the EV 'virtue signaller's' cars are still be charged with electricity generathed by non renewables.

It is absolutely meaningless to say "look how bad fossil fuels are/were”.

Colbalt? ...old skool now. Soon to ne a thing of the past. Tesla recently confirmed that nearly half of all its vehicles produced last quarter are already using cobalt-free iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries.

 

[Petrol Pete]

I have to agree with others on here , when driving from A to Z I hate stopping for any reason , even getting petrol pi$$es me off. I tend to stop after driving 3 hours max for a quick stretch/comfort break . This obviously changes with kid's in the car .

But the thought of having to spend more than 20 minutes at any type of service area fills me with horror. Imagine the cost of spending 40 minutes at a motorway services with 2 or 3 kids in the back of your EV ! .

Add to that that I hardly ever drink coffee.........

 

[clk320x]

That is an absurd comparison.

There is a hell of a lot more cobalt in a car battery array than in a phone or laptop. There are about 8000 cells in a Tesla Plaid array.

Fossil fuel extraction was the only real source of power for centuries and for a large part of that time, mankind was totally ignorant of the multiple down sides (to health, evironment etc) of using fossil fuels. We’ve yet to discover what the impact of EVs is going to be on future generations.

Most of the EV 'virtue signaller's' cars are still be charged with electricity generathed by non renewables.

It is absolutely meaningless to say "look how bad fossil fuels are/were”.

 

[clk320x]

Time spent waiting for an EV to charge is life down the drain. It would drive me crazy to sit at some filthy motorway services waiting for my car to charge.

You do realise you can charge them at home overnight right… and most will do 300 miles on that… perhaps you’re one of the ones on this group who regularly does 1500 miles without stopping for a break by switching drivers though?

 

[clk320x]

Colbalt? ...old skool now. Soon to ne a thing of the past. Tesla recently confirmed that nearly half of all its vehicles produced last quarter are already using cobalt-free iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries.

A lot of people are scared of change… the same probably happened when the horse & cart was replaced.

I’m sure in the not so distance future people will look back on internal combustion as we now look back at steam railway locomotives…

 

[markjay]

EVs aren't the solution to all our planet's problem, granted, but:

(a) EVs produce zero harmful exhaust emissions, and the air pollution currently involved in producing the electricity for EVs is taking place far away from busy city centres and residential neighbourhoods. This in itself has the potential to saves lives and improve people's health. The only other way to achieve improvement in air quality in city centres and residential areas is by restricting access to all motor vehicles to certain areas at certain times (common practice in London over the past two years).

(b) The fundamental difference between an EV and an ICE car, is that an ICE car carries the energy production plant with it. This means that future changes to the fuel type will take years if not decades to complete (e.g. the transition to unleaded petrol in the eighties, or the transition to PDF and then to AdBlue for Diesel cars in later years). With EVs, the energy is produced centrally at national power plants, and this means that a future transition to green electricity will be quick and seamless as far as motorists are concerned.

That been said, my own personal concern regarding EVs and the environment, is that EVs are inherently cheaper to make, cheaper to maintain, and (at current at least) cheaper to run. This could lead to us having even more cars than we do now, especially in emerging economies. Which is not good news, because it means an increase in our overall energy consumption - and I believe that humans should learn to use energy much more efficiently than we do now. Having more cars can't be good for the planet, no matter how green are the power plants that produce the energy to power them.

 

[Bellow]

That been said, my own personal concern regarding EVs and the environment, is that EVs are inherently cheaper to make, cheaper to maintain, and (at current at least) cheaper to run. This could lead to us having even more cars than we do now, especially in emerging economies. Which is not good news, because it means an increase in our overall energy consumption - and I believe that humans should learn to use energy much more efficiently than we do now. Having more cars can't be good for the planet, no matter how green are the power plants that produce the energy to power them.

The selling price suggests otherwise. Or are you referring to the vehicle only - batteries not included?

 

[ChipChop]

The Chinese state love the Western EV cheerleaders. The vast majority of EV batteries are made in China and will continue to be made there for the foreseeable future.

Wonder how long into the future that one will come back to bite us Westerners in the backside?

Mapped: EV Battery Manufacturing Capacity, by Region

Which countries are leading the race for EV batteries?

www.visualcapitalist.com

 

[markjay]

....Wonder how long into the future that one will come back to bite us Westerners in the backside?

Too late for that... if the West falls out with China now, EV battery shortages will be the least of our worries.

 

[markjay]

The selling price suggests otherwise. Or are you referring to the vehicle only - batteries not included?

All new tech is ridiculously expensive.... time and scale will bring prices down, as will new and emerging technology.

 

[Bellow]

All new tech is ridiculously expensive.... time and scale will bring prices down, as will new and emerging technology.

Your statement was in current tense. The future is unknown.

 

[Bellow]

The Chinese state love the Western EV cheerleaders. The vast majority of EV batteries are made in China and will continue to be made there for the foreseeable future.

Wonder how long into the future that one will come back to bite us Westerners in the backside?

Mapped: EV Battery Manufacturing Capacity, by Region

Which countries are leading the race for EV batteries?

www.visualcapitalist.com

Too late for that... if the West falls out with China now, EV battery shortages will be the least of our worries.

It doesn't need a falling out. China can choose at any time to start exporting its EVs and stop producing EVs and components for western manufacturers. It can clear the ICE vehicle from our streets by refusing to supply the parts that keep them running. Meanwhile Britain cheers on the disintegration of the EU. Like the dinosaurs playing with their ball-sacks as the meteorite closed in.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

You do realise you can charge them at home overnight right… and most will do 300 miles on that… perhaps you’re one of the ones on this group who regularly does 1500 miles without stopping for a break by switching drivers though?

What a disingenuous paragraph..

Are you serious? Really? I’d never have dreamed that was possible. Gee wizz! Charging at home wow!!

I don’t base my rest breaks on distance, They are based on time.

I notice you did not refute the first sentence of my earlier reply!

 

[markjay]

It doesn't need a falling out. China can choose at any time to start exporting its EVs and stop producing EVs and components for western manufacturers. It can clear the ICE vehicle from our streets by refusing to supply the parts that keep them running.....

Yes, but why focus on EV batteries? The list of products that the Chinese can this for, is very long. 'Horses' and 'bolted' comes to mind.

 

[ChipChop]

It doesn't need a falling out. China can choose at any time to start exporting its EVs and stop producing EVs and components for western manufacturers. It can clear the ICE vehicle from our streets by refusing to supply the parts that keep them running. Meanwhile Britain cheers on the disintegration of the EU. Like the dinosaurs playing with their ball-sacks as the meteorite closed in.

Indeed the communist Chinese regime can do whatever they like. They are very good at that. Control. Total control. Bit early to talk as if they have total control of the West just yet though. The EV horseshit has not really taken off at all in the West despite the constant Chinese sponsored green guff. Personally i am not pro-authoratarian regimes so a car with an overpriced battery made by slaves in some Chinese hellhole is not for me.

 

[Bellow]

Yes, but why focus on EV batteries? The list of products that the Chinese can this for, is very long. 'Horses' and 'bolted' comes to mind.

I'm not. I'm talking about complete cars. And yes, the list of what China manufactures for the west is a long one. But a new i-phone or coffee machine or toaster or.... hardly as vital as the parts that keep the machinery moving, the cars we rely on to get to work and back.
Sandy Munroe makes the point that China knows how to make quality EVs - they've been making them to western standards for western companies and any idea that Chinese branded EVs would be lesser quality is easily countered by that fact. That they can shift from one to the other and clear the market space should be a cause for concern. How would western consumers react? Refuse to buy Chinese cars when none were available from western manufacturers? How quickly and competitively can western companies (of any goods, not only cars) repatriate manufacturing?

 

[clk320x]

What a disingenuous paragraph..

Are you serious? Really? I’d never have dreamed that was possible. Gee wizz! Charging at home wow!!

I don’t base my rest breaks on distance, They are based on time.

I notice you did not refute the first sentence of my earlier reply!

Why are you so angry?

Which reply are you referring to? The one about Cobalt? That was already addressed, there’s already a new battery technology out that is cobalt free… (LFP) Which is being used in increasing numbers of EVs. Steps are also being taken to improve supply chains… and the recycling of EV batteries is already being heavily looked into… BTW an old battery isn’t just tossed into landfill, it still has a massive value (several thousand pounds) and cells are removed and used for home storage etc…. Cobalt is also used in the refinement of crude oil…

The one about ‘the electricity being used being from non-renewables’ is also nonsense… the grid is getting cleaner year on year, most people charging up overnight are on Octopus Go which is a 100% renewable tariff (meaning they match your use with renewable energy production), also Tesla Superchargers for example are all powered by 100% renewable energy (via offset if necessary)…

P.S. even if you use non-renewables to generate electricity to then power an EV, burning the ‘non-renewable’ (which in the U.K. is almost exclusively natural gas) in a power plant is far more efficient than fuel in an internal combustion engine, so it’s still the lesser of two evils…

Your reply about ‘recharging being a waste of your life’ was answered by my point that 95% of charging takes place overnight when you are asleep… and the odd rapid DC charge only takes 30 mins or so anyway, which on a long trip can be combined with a regular stop…

I’m not sure what else to say here… you obviously have a set in stone thought on the topic… which is fine. I was once the same. Reading articles online and actually owning and living with one for a year is totally different.

There’s sources for all these facts above, but I’ve already wasted enough of my time as it is with this reply, so I won’t bother.

 

[markjay]

I'm not. I'm talking about complete cars. And yes, the list of what China manufactures for the west is a long one. But a new i-phone or coffee machine or toaster or.... hardly as vital as the parts that keep the machinery moving, the cars we rely on to get to work and back.
Sandy Munroe makes the point that China knows how to make quality EVs - they've been making them to western standards for western companies and any idea that Chinese branded EVs would be lesser quality is easily countered by that fact. That they can shift from one to the other and clear the market space should be a cause for concern. How would western consumers react? Refuse to buy Chinese cars when none were available from western manufacturers? How quickly and competitively can western companies (of any goods, not only cars) repatriate manufacturing?

Incidentally, the two countries that have always baulked at relying on Chinese-made components are Japan and South Korea.

The Korean auto makers had a problem though, because with a population of only 50m it is difficult to maintain complete manufacturering capacity to meet their goal of becoming a major player on tbe world's stage.

Hyundai and Kia solved the problem by building their own manufacturing facilities in China, instead of buying parts from local Chinese manufacturers.

But the experiment wasn't a great success due to Covid, that saw their Chinese factories' production grind to a halt due to the lockdown in China as of early 2020.

To this day, the vast majority of parts for Korean and Japanese cars are still manufactured locally in Korea and Japan (respectively).