Formula 1, Moto GP, WSB, 2021 Season

[pmcgsmurf]

Whichever way you look at it I think Mercedes really screwed this race up strategy wise.

When Red Bull pitted Verstappen for fresh hards (Giovanazzi incident) Mercedes had an opportunity at the end of Lap 37 to pit Hamilton for fresh tyres and stay ahead.
They did not for some reason and we then here Toto pleading with Masi not to go to a full safety car.

When Verstappen pitted during the Latifi incident could they not have covered this too?

 

[Dryce]

MV will be forever known as the stewards champion

By whom? (And if you were going down this route then surely it ought to be "race director's champion"?)

This is not MV's fault - unless you expected him to take a view that he wasn't entitled to the win and backed off on that last lap? Not likely. I don't think any druiver in his position would have held back.

MV won this 'fair and square' in the sense that it was on the playing field that was set out for him.

It's unfair to blame him. This WDC came down to the wire where two drivers in two different teams with two different engines stood head and shoulders above the entire rest of the field. The margins between the two drivers and their cars were small over the whole season. And the number of times they were *both* a pit stop ahead of the rest of the field is breathtaking.

On this occasion Sir Lewis Hamilton was denied by a fateful sequence that led to a gross professional error by a race official.

In another time it might have been a tyre - or tangling with a back marker - or a technical failure.

Had this been some strange season where the WDC somehow lucked over the season then we might feel some bitterness that the best drivers were denied.

MV didn't luck out over the season. He performed brilliantly and repeatedly under huge pressure from one of F1's greatest drivers. He is not undeserving and had this been instead down to a DNF by Mercedes then we'd take nothing from him,

 

[GeeJayW]

Whichever way you look at it I think Mercedes really screwed this race up strategy wise.

When Red Bull pitted Verstappen for fresh hards (Giovanazzi incident) Mercedes had an opportunity at the end of Lap 37 to pit Hamilton for fresh tyres and stay ahead.
They did not for some reason and we then here Toto pleading with Masi not to go to a full safet car.

When Verstappen pitted during the Latifi incident could they not have covered this too?

Had Mercedes pitted after the Latifi incident, Max would have stayed out on relatively fresh tyres and would have had track position. If the race director (in the absence of howling from the Red Bull pit wall) then decides to stick to his original decision of not allowing lapped cars to pass the leader, or let them all go or let some of them go but bring the safety car in one lap later…

 

[st13phil]

When Verstappen pitted during the Latifi incident could they not have covered this too?

No.

If they had brought Hamilton in, he would have lost track position and the teams had all been told that lapped cars would not be allowed to overtake the safety car, further muddying the waters.

With Verstappen, RBR had to roll the dice as they thought they couldn't win from their P2 position if/when the race was restarted as Hamilton had proven to be at least as quick as they were on similarly worn tyres. They gambled that Verstappen on new soft tyres would have been able to quickly pass the lapped cars and attack Hamilton.

Then Masi threw the whole lot up in the air by changing his mind about allowing some - but not all - of the lapped cars to pass the safety car putting Verstappen back on Hamilton's gearbox, and by ignoring the rule that said the safety car should be brought in at the end of the next lap, after the lapped cars had passed the safety car.

By his actions, Masi effectively decided who would win the WDC which, however you look at it, isn't part of the Race Director's brief.

 

[DSM10000]

Apparently (according to something SWMBO saw), Lewis has asked Mercedes to just drop it and move on.

It would be the most magnanimousrand gacious way to procede.

 

[Harrythedog]

By whom? (And if you were going down this route then surely it ought to be "race director's champion"?)

This is not MV's fault - unless you expected him to take a view that he wasn't entitled to the win and backed off on that last lap? Not likely. I don't think any druiver in his position would have held back.

MV won this 'fair and square' in the sense that it was on the playing field that was set out for him.

It's unfair to blame him. This WDC came down to the wire where two drivers in two different teams with two different engines stood head and shoulders above the entire rest of the field. The margins between the two drivers and their cars were small over the whole season. And the number of times they were *both* a pit stop ahead of the rest of the field is breathtaking.

On this occasion Sir Lewis Hamilton was denied by a fateful sequence that led to a gross professional error by a race official.

In another time it might have been a tyre - or tangling with a back marker - or a technical failure.

Had this been some strange season where the WDC somehow lucked over the season then we might feel some bitterness that the best drivers were denied.

MV didn't luck out over the season. He performed brilliantly and repeatedly under huge pressure from one of F1's greatest drivers. He is not undeserving and had this been instead down to a DNF by Mercedes then we'd take nothing from him,

See post #2548
There‘s not a person on the Planet who doesn’t see that without the decision made by Masi,Verstappen wouldn’t be WDC. This will always be remembered which is a shame as MV won the most GP’s this season

 

[Petrol Pete]

I set my alarm for 04:30H Sunday morning to get up to watch the race live in my hotel room in Portland Oregon USA knowing full well that I would be a jetlagged mess by today as that was the day I had to drive 3 hours to Seattle to board my LHR bound flight at 18:30 , arriving home today lunchtime after a 9 hour flight , 8 hour time difference and the booze I took onboard in the lounge and on the flight I feel $hite as I type this .

I wish I had not bothered setting my alarm, missing that race and having an extra 3 hours of sleep would have done me the world of good , in more ways than one.

On another note , Liberty are a US sports/entertainment conglomerate . Anyone who has spent anytime in the US and frequents pubs and bars will know about the banks of televisions 'normal' bars will have 4 or 5 but 'sports' bars will have 20 , 30 or more including at eye level in the urinals.

All will be switched on showing a constant stream of American Football/baseball/ice hockey/basketball/golf , both live , repeated and historic . All designed to be shown with the sound turned down to entertain the drinking masses with colour and spectacle.

Where I was there is very strong support for the local 'Soccer' team (The Portland Timbers) and at the final against NYC this week the stadium was packed and the crown showed as much if not more enthusiasm than a premiership game here in the UK. I think that is not the norm as many sports fans over there don't quite 'get' how a game can end in a 0-0 draw (and as for cricket ....forget it) With this in mind Liberty Media will have to do something to make F1 'their' sport.

It appears (to the cynical) that that something is already happening.

I will watch next year because the new cars will be interesting ...and my SKY F1 subscription was bundled in 'free' when I went HD a number of years back....

 

[pmcgsmurf]

Had Mercedes pitted after the Latifi incident, Max would have stayed out on relatively fresh tyres and would have had track position. If the race director (in the absence of howling from the Red Bull pit wall) then decides to stick to his original decision of not allowing lapped cars to pass the leader, or let them all go or let some of them go but bring the safety car in one lap later…

I meant why didn't Mercedes cover Red Bull and stop at end of next lap for softs!

Bad show from both constructors to be screaming at Masi.

 

[Stratman]

Football analogy. You're leading 4-0 in the 89th minute and the referee decides to send off your goalkeeper and then decrees 'next goal wins'.

 

[Bellow]

See post #2548
There‘s not a person on the Planet who doesn’t see that without the decision made by Masi,Verstappen wouldn’t be WDC. This will always be remembered which is a shame as MV won the most GP’s this season

Would have been 9 each if Masi hadn't steered the result. Then again, Hamilton would have been 8 points ahead going into the final race and could have won the WDC with a second place finish but for Masi doling out points in Spa after two laps behind the safety car having already ripped up the rule book in permitting that to occur over the time limit for delayed race starts. And what's the soundtrack if it isn't Verstappen bleating 'they won't let me win'. Pass me the sick bag....

 

[whitenemesis]

Apparently (according to something SWMBO saw), Lewis has asked Mercedes to just drop it and move on.

Big changes to the cars next year, let's see if Mercedes can steal a march on the others (again) and LH get his 8th WDC next year?

 

[pmcgsmurf]

No.

If they had brought Hamilton in, he would have lost track position

Is this 100% or touch and go?
I've not looked at timing charts around these laps.
At least he would have been on fresh tyres and in a position to challenge/defend.

and the teams had all been told that lapped cars would not be allowed to overtake the safety car, further muddying the waters.

Wasn't it a case of lapped cars "cannot overtake" for safety issues?
This can't be defined as will never be allowed to overtake surely!

 

[GeeJayW]

I meant why didn't Mercedes cover Red Bull and stop at end of next lap for softs!

Bad show from both constructors to be screaming at Masi.

Because they would have given up track position with no degree of certainty that they would have an opportunity to have any race laps before the end of the race. A pit stop by Lewis would have effectively been game over.

 

[Stratman]

Does anyone really believe if Hamilton had pitted and was behind Verstappen it wouldn't have finished under the safety car?

 

[GeeJayW]

Does anyone really believe if Hamilton had pitted and was behind Verstappen it wouldn't have finished under the safety car?

Nope. Safety car all the way in that scenario

 

[st13phil]

Is this 100% or touch and go?
I've not looked at timing charts around these laps.
At least he would have been on fresh tyres and in a position to challenge/defend.

If Mercedes had pitted Hamilton under the safety car, RBR would have left Verstappen out, meaning Hamilton would have ceded the lead to Verstappen. Once Verstappen pitted, as the field was closed up under the safety car, bringing in Hamilton would have put him almost at the back of the field, thus handing Verstappen an easy finish ahead of Hamilton.

Wasn't it a case of lapped cars "cannot overtake" for safety issues?

Usually, all lapped cars are required to overtake the safety car so as not to interfere with the racing once it is green flagged. The safety car then circulates for another lap so as to allow the lapped cars that overtook it to close up on the back of the pack.

My guess is that Masi initially decided that they wouldn’t overtake the safety car because it would take all the remaining laps for things to proceed in the normal way, with the race ending under the safety car. He subsequently rewrote the rules, in order to have the race finish under a green flag condition and by doing so guaranteed Verstappen the race win and the WDC.

As @Bellow mentioned above, he similarly rewrote the rules in Spa, gifting Verstappen 8 points over Hamilton in the most questionable way. Overall, despite Horner, Marko and Verstappen's constant whining that they’re hard done by, they were gifted the WDC by a number of Masi's decisions through the year. Which stinks.

 

[st13phil]

Regarding Mercedes' appeal, my guess is that they will do some horse-trading with the FIA that involves Masi being removed in exchange for them not proceeding with what is almost certain to end up as a major embarrassment for F1 and the FIA.

 

[Bellow]

Does anyone really believe if Hamilton had pitted and was behind Verstappen it wouldn't have finished under the safety car?

Nope. Safety car all the way in that scenario

Hmmm..... maybe, maybe not. I'm still (perhaps over generously) prepared to believe that Masi merely wanted last lap fireworks rather than to specifically hand the WDC to Verstappen. That he did that (in my scenario) was ill-considered and unbefitting of one with his responsibility.
No generosity whatsoever for Spa. None. And I still can't believe it went unchallenged - or know why it went unchallenged.

 

[AMGeed]

Gotta ask, which Pop Star?

I won't name him but think his initials are P N.
Correct or way off the mark?,

 

[GeeJayW]

Hmmm..... maybe, maybe not. I'm still (perhaps over generously) prepared to believe that Masi merely wanted last lap fireworks rather than to specifically hand the WDC to Verstappen. That he did that (in my scenario) was ill-considered and unbefitting of one with his responsibility.
No generosity whatsoever for Spa. None. And I still can't believe it went unchallenged - or know why it went unchallenged.

Given that conditions were so bad in Spa that the medical helicopter was grounded, there should never have been a race at all. The guy is about as predictable as warped shopping trolley.