Possible EV 🙄🙂

[MikeInWimbledon]

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The transition is real.

My "Emperor's New clothes" comments focus on cost of ownership, desirability, performance, and the sexist pattern of ownership. (Owners are strongly just men under 35)

An e-Golf with a 150 mile range should be a pretty useful thing. But why do they drop £20k in their first four years of usage? Why aren't people buying them used? (This one's a high spec version with premium paint and digital display)

View attachment 144707

That e-Golf has lost £20k over four years, dropping from £35k to £15k

For comparison, an equally well spec'd GTI has dropped half that amount: falling £8k from £30k to £22k over the same period

OK, maybe this is great news for the next owner of the e-Golf. He, and it will be a "he," is getting it cheap.

But if the EV is cheap to run, why aren't people buying them, and why aren't they paying more for them?

 

[Gollom]

@SmartAmg if you do decide to go EV - you’re always welcome to PM me and I’ll help you sort your electric tariff etc.. that goes for anyone here.

That just for EV charging people?

 

[markjay]

...But if the EV is cheap to run, why aren't people buying them, and why aren't they paying more for them...

1. Lack of charging infrastructure. Not everyone has a drive (I don't). Some places have convenient public chargers (out street does), some don't.

2. Range. Most people don't drive 300 miles in a day, but some do.

3. Choice. There aren't any viable large EVs - if you need a van, a pick-up truck, or a people carrier for work, any EV out there will be seriously comprising on range. OK for city work, but that's about it.

4. Price. Both initial buying price when buying new, and lack of supply of older cars. It will be another 5 years before you have a decent choice of second hand 8 years old EVs that aren't Tesla.

5. Prejudice. Some people gain their knowledge by listening to stories told by a bloke at their local, or believe what they read on Internet rants. No they don't catch fire spontaneously, no they don't become obsolete after 5 years, and no EV owners don't drive around with portable Diesel generators in the boot.... etc.

 

[KennyN]

Why aren't people buying them used? (This one's a high spec version with premium paint and digital display)

Because the EV ownership utopia is not for everyone , either because they just plainly do not want one , cant afford one or the charging infrastructure is not in place in their specific area (London has 32% of the entire UK charging points / there are three times more charging points in London than the entirety of Scotland)

Most people who want , can afford and have access to off street parking to charge have made the jump into EV ownership already which is possibly why used sales are stalling slightly.

After three years of ownership an EV purchased when it was four years old will be a hard sell once the batteries are seven years old and almost out of warranty.

K

 

[markjay]

After three years of ownership an EV purchased when it was four years old will be a hard sell once the batteries are seven years old and almost out of warranty.

K

You say that.... but people keep buying second hand cars with AdBlue system, you'd think that by now no one in his right mind would touch an MB car with the AdBlue system out of warranty, and yet buy then they do... we have one every week here, complaining about ££££ and no solution in sight. Members on here are more savvy than the average motorist.

 

[KennyN]

You say that.... but people keep buying second hand cars with AdBlue system, you'd think that by now no one in his right mind would touch an MB car with the AdBlue system out of warranty, and yet buy then they do... we have one every week here, complaining about ££££ and no solution in sight. Members on here are more savvy than the average motorist.

Buy a diesel car with AdBlue is unavoidable if you want a ICE LEZ compliant vehicle , buying an EV is (still) avoidable.

The AB is one of the reasons a diesel X5 was removed from my buying list due to its potential AB issues , especially with me doing a minimal annual mileage.

We have a decent leasing scheme through Tusker at work and loads of guys have recently signed up for Polstar / iX4 / iX3 deals but they all have charging points at home , do minimal mileage and can hand them back after three years and get another (regardless of how eco that is) so in their case EV`s work , it doesn`t in other cases in just doesn`t.

K

 

[markjay]

Buy a diesel car with AdBlue is unavoidable if you want a ICE Diesel LEZ compliant vehicle , buying an EV is (still) avoidable.

The AB is one of the reasons a diesel X5 was removed from my buying list due to its potential AB issues , especially with me doing a minimal annual mileage.

We have a decent leasing scheme through Tusker at work and loads of guys have recently signed up for Polstar / iX4 / iX3 deals but they all have charging points at home , do minimal mileage and can hand them back after three years and get another (regardless of how eco that is) so in their case EV`s work , it doesn`t in other cases in just doesn`t.

K

Agreed, with the correction above.

 

[ALFAitalia]

True, but not the full picture .

Firstly, the principle of First Class and Business Class paying the cost doesn't apply with budget airlines, i.e. Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz Air, etc.

Then, the main reason cheap flights exist is that it's a cutthroat business operating on very low margins. You will notice that large corporates mostly have cash reserves that allow them to withstand an occasional termiol in the market, while Airlines often fall from sky like flies (pun intended) at the first sign of trouble: TWA, Pan Am, Swissair, Alitalia, Flybe, Thomas Cook, Monarch - no other industry saw such a high rate of failure of its main players due to financial reasons.

It's an extremely competitive industry, and consumers benefit.

Not to mention modern planes are very efficient on fuel.....Ok there is a bit more cost to running an airliner than just the fuel and I'm sure servicing is a bit more expensive than my A Class!....but as much as aircraft efficiency differs, as do the conditions on different routes—a domestic airliner can get anywhere from 45.5 to 77.6 miles per gallon per passenger, with an industry average of about 51 miles per gallon of fuel per passenger. Better than most cars. This obviously depends on the plane being full.......so better to sell a cheap seat than leave it empty.

 

[BIGDOG]

Well I met a real life EV owner last week.we had a chat he explained he bought his Nissan Leaf in 22 and got a good part ex on his old car and he got money contribution and it according to him cost very little to run,he said he did 4000 miles a year,when questioned he said well maybe less than 4000,asked how he charged it he said from the mains in my garage does he have a charger no straight from the plug socket,had he every charged it away from home no he had not did not trust those high powered chargers they damaged batteries?,what about poor resale values,he was not worried as he would keep it to the wheels fell off,did he worry about high repair costs if he had a accident,no he never has a accident.
It has not been a very good couple of weeks for EV's another ship on fire with 500 hundred EV cars on it,and ferry companies starting to understand that there is a problem,and will it bite them in the backside,insurance companies are looking at repair costs given any serious accident means a write off,or expensive repairs,,we have car traders not wanting second hand EV's,I watched a you tube video from a guy who collects scrapped cars for a large company and he showed lots of damaged EV's all spaced out in his compound I suppose because of the danger of fires,I wondered just how long before EV cars are given their own train to travel the channel tunnel,and maybe pulled over kent side of the Dartford crossing like the fuel tankers before being escorted through the tunnel,who knows maybe none of those things will happen,but as in a earlier post,I will let the fan boys have the EV's and the company owners run them for practically nothing,I will sit this dance out.

PARKLIFE!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Not to mention modern planes are very efficient on fuel.....Ok there is a bit more cost to running an airliner than just the fuel and I'm sure servicing is a bit more expensive than my A Class!....but as much as aircraft efficiency differs, as do the conditions on different routes—a domestic airliner can get anywhere from 45.5 to 77.6 miles per gallon per passenger, with an industry average of about 51 miles per gallon of fuel per passenger. Better than most cars. This obviously depends on the plane being full.......so better to sell a cheap seat than leave it empty.

They do need to run "kind of" empty planes in order to get them into the right place at the right time, and to keep all the slots that they've been given.

So you can fly cheaply on Tuesday, when most people don't want to, and in the "wrong" direction to commuter flights, because planes are moved to pick up the high price commuters.

"We" used to have business commuters who would always fly on high demand flights on Friday nights because they knew that they could put their hands up when volunteers were sought to be "bumped off" the plane because high price ticket Business flyers needed to fly. In return they got an expensed night in a hotel, a new flight, AND two free flight vouchers as a "thank you."

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Well I met a real life EV owner last week.we had a chat he explained he bought his Nissan Leaf in 22 and got a good part ex on his old car and he got money contribution and it according to him cost very little to run,he said he did 4000 miles a year,when questioned he said well maybe less than 4000,asked how he charged it he said from the mains in my garage does he have a charger no straight from the plug socket,

Those new shape Leaf's are impressive: big improvement on the previous model

Roughly £30k new

Could save him a chunky £250 in fuel a year, by switching from the 60mpg of a Ford Focus to an EV.

But I think I'd wait until the Leaf gets a bit older and cheaper.

Nissan are selling 22 reg cars on delivery mileages at 25% off now.

 

[Mactech]

The transition is real.

My "Emperor's New clothes" comments focus on cost of ownership, desirability, performance, and the sexist pattern of ownership. (Owners are strongly just men under 35)

An e-Golf with a 150 mile range should be a pretty useful thing. But why do they drop £20k in their first four years of usage? Why aren't people buying them used? (This one's a high spec version with premium paint and digital display)

View attachment 144707

Well I didn't buy that golf for a number of reasons.

• It is a 'converted' car not one designed and built for the purpose of E motoring. The Golf is a great car but compromised as an EV in many ways.
• The Golf is almost 2 years older and over 30k miles more used than the BMW i3 I just bought.
• It's heavy.
• I love the idea of a composite car after working with (somewhat quicker ones) for almost 40 years.
• Not nearly quirky enough for my wife!
• No theatre of stepping in to a brave new world of E motoring

The BMW was priced almost 10k higher a year ago and have just been realigned with reality. Good low mileage cars now represent good value and are flying off the shelves. There were 20 for sale which fitted my criteria 2 weeks age, now there are 2.
You can see the cluster of cars now selling well on the lower right.

 

[clk320x]

Could save him a chunky £250 in fuel a year, by switching from the 60mpg of a Ford Focus to an EV.

Someone who does 4000 miles a year is most likely doing local town trips where even a frugal ICE Focus wouldn’t be doing anywhere near 60 mpg - savings therefore would be far more considerable.

 

[davymead]

The transition is real.

My "Emperor's New clothes" comments focus on cost of ownership, desirability, performance, and the sexist pattern of ownership. (Owners are strongly just men under 35)

An e-Golf with a 150 mile range should be a pretty useful thing. But why do they drop £20k in their first four years of usage? Why aren't people buying them used? (This one's a high spec version with premium paint and digital display)

View attachment 144707

Maybe as was the case with my daughter being given one as a company car, she couldn’t wait to get rid.
Allegedly the range as you stated was in fact woefully different in reality. She works roughly twenty odd miles from home and last Winter struggled badly when lights, heater, wipers, etc etc draining the system, and coupled with the dreaded Nottingham peak traffic jams, left her often in the grip of range meltdown. She said the thought of being stuck on the side of the road completely helpless was one she has no problem in forgetting.
Incidentally, her and her partner have just bought a new VW T-Roc 1.5TSI as their family car.

 

[markjay]

Maybe as was the case with my daughter being given one as a company car, she couldn’t wait to get rid.
Allegedly the range as you stated was in fact woefully different in reality. She works roughly twenty odd miles from home and last Winter struggled badly when lights, heater, wipers, etc etc draining the system, and coupled with the dreaded Nottingham peak traffic jams, left her often in the grip of range meltdown. She said the thought of being stuck on the side of the road completely helpless was one she has no problem in forgetting.
Incidentally, her and her partner have just bought a new VW T-Roc 1.5TSI as their family car.

An EV that can't cope with a 20 mile daily commute without leaving you stranded at the roadside? What was she given - a 10 years old Mk1 Nissan Leaf?

EDIT: EVs actually cope very well with traffic jams, there's hardly any consumption while static (apart for maybe lights or heating in winter).

 

[davymead]

An EV that can't cope with a 20 mile daily commute without leaving you stranded at the roadside? What was she given - a 10 years old Mk1 Nissan Leaf?

EDIT: EVs actually cope very well with traffic jams, there's hardly any consumption while static (apart for maybe lights or heating in winter).

I was replying to the post above about why nobody wants a used Golf E.
What I should have made clear is it’s charged overnight at home, No chargers at the workplace.
Nevertheless, struggling to handle a 20 odd miles commute there and home is pretty poor. TPIM.

 

[markjay]

I was replying to the post above about why nobody wants a used Golf E.
What I should have made clear is it’s charged overnight at home, No chargers at the workplace.
Nevertheless, struggling to handle a 20 odd miles commute there and home is pretty poor. TPIM.

It's not poor, it's abysmal... no other EV I can think of, new or old, is that bad. Even the Sinclair C5 managed 20 miles

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Someone who does 4000 miles a year is most likely doing local town trips where even a frugal ICE Focus wouldn’t be doing anywhere near 60 mpg - savings therefore would be far more considerable.

Good point. He'd be buying a hundred gallons a year at a cost of £700, so by having spent £30,000 on that Nissan Leaf, he could be saving £500 a year in fuel costs.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It's not poor, it's abysmal... no other EV I can think of, new or old, is that bad. Even the Sinclair C5 managed 20 miles

Methinks that was a first VW e-Golf (2015) which had an original range of 100 miles. In Winter, with the heater, easily down to 70 or 80

Which is fine if you plug it in EVERY night, AND you pre-heat the car in winter using the electric feed, but what woman would?

There's a bit of theme that goes on amongst EV owners that it's the bloke who plugs the thing in, even at night, even in the rain. "Because it's a "blue" or "boy's" job.

And, of course, as we constantly see new EV owners struggle to understand that you charge "when you can, usually at home," unlike Dino Juice, which you put in "when it's low."

But again, this is first generation stuff. Think Windows 1.0 or the first iPhone.

The latest ID3 has better range. (Even if it does have appalling reliability and a screen based system worth taking a hammer to.)

 

[markjay]

Good point. He'd be buying a hundred gallons a year at a cost of £700, so by having spent £30,000 on that Nissan Leaf, he could be saving £500 a year in fuel costs.

The cheapest Ford Focus costs £27,000, so you are quite right in that it will take 6 years to recoup the fuel cost. But factor-in no VED and low maintenance cost, and you're probably breaking even after just a year or two.