Regulations on yellow lines and accuracy of Penalty Notice Charges

[steveatpipex]

Hi all, wondering if anybody can provide any advice on the following:
Our city has decriminalised parking. On Saturday gone my son has parked on a single yellow line, believing incorrectly that weekends were exempt. Fair enough, but on looking at the PCN the warden has got the location wrong - he's placed the car some 200 yds way at a different junction to where my son was actually parked.

In addition, the single yellow line is a rather narrow affair and is no where near 100mm wide. I've tried to make sense of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 for the relevant legislation but it seems to say that a yellow line can be 100mm but has alternatives of 50 and 75 mm too, with no easy explanation as to when an alternative can be used.

My son has wrote to the council asking for the PCN to be withdrawn on the grounds of accuracy of the location. They replied back ignoring this point and stating the ticket stands as he was not loading or unloading.

I know there is an argument he should just pay it, but our legal system depends on due process and on this occasion, if the due process is wrong, then it may be worth another letter.

Any knowledge on either of these points please (inaccuracy of location and thickness of eyllow lines)

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[Will]

Just pay it...

Will

 

[PeterG]

No way dispute it.
With the average intelligence of a parking attendant if you have a substantive point to make they usually back down if you appeal.
If he/she can get the location wrong they have no integrity.
If they were 200yds away how could they see if your son was loading or unloading?
Pete

 

[nigel cross]

There's no way they will back down. Being a motorist means you will get shaftted every time.
The ignore the true facts and follow the what the ticket issued by the wardens says no matter how right or wrong it is.

 

[andy_k]

is there any CCTV on that junction?

if there is then it may be worth asking for the tape at the time of the ticket.

Andy

 

[steveatpipex]

is there any CCTV on that junction?

if there is then it may be worth asking for the tape at the time of the ticket.

Andy

The warden actually took pictures of the car, but he's wrote a location on the ticket (hes put it down as Argyle Street/Cresswell Terrace) which is actually about 200yds away from the point it actually was. I've been sent copies of the pictures. I'm not disputing my son was parked on a yellow line or claiminghe was loading or unloading. I believe the technical facts are wrong on the ticket.

My thoughts are that due process has not been followed in that the ticket is factually incorrect - yes a technicality but the British legal System (and many solicitors and lawyers!) thrive on such arguments. For example, I understand a warden has to have their hat on when issuing a Ticket which has got nothing to do with the parking of ther car.

 

[grasmere]

theres a website, iirc, that helps with advice on this sort of thing to help the motorist - any ideas anyone?

 

[robert.saunders]

The yellow line thickness can vary, and the highway authority has to apply to DfT to allow narrow lines in areas where it deems them fit for character of street etc. So, the lines issue would generally be fine.

However, the location is a different matter entirely. If you are 100% correct that the location is wrong then go to NPAS appeal; if however you are wrong, you will not win the appeal. Check with accurate OS mapping that the road is different to that suggested - you can ask the parking appeals team for copies of their mapped schedules which form part of their Traffic Management/Regulation Orders (either TMO or TRO). These schedules HAVE to be submitted to NPAS on a formal representation and therefore you are entitled to see them also; these are not private documents and if the appeals team don't supply then follow a formal Freedom of Information request.

If, you are 100% sure, don't pay - go to representation on the grounds of a technicality that the PCN is invalid, and you may find this doesn't reach NPAS stage.

If there is any doubt, then you will have to pay as it would seem, on paper, to be a valid PCN.

There are other avenues you can explore - does the PCN have "Date of notice" printed on it? Does the street have enough time plates which indicate when the restriction is in operation; if so, were they obscured?

Let us know how it progresses.

Rob

 

[Flasheart]

Just pay it - you admit you were wrong - why try and weasel out of your just deserts?

Or why not try it wasn't my fault, society is to blame, a friend came back from out of town, there wasn't an earth quake...... how can i be expected to take responsiblity for my own actions?

 

[pammy]

I would just pay it - it's not a points offence or declarable to insurance - it's a parking ticket that he deserved.

Using a technicality to get off when you're in the wrong really winds me up - sorry - especially when it is only a few quid and no lasting damage.

The site for driving issues is pepipoo, but it's mainly for speeding:

http://www.pepipoo.com/

 

[Shude]

Using a technicality to get off when you're in the wrong really winds me up - sorry - especially when it is only a few quid and no lasting damage.

How many times are people busted on a technicality? All the time! If there is a chance that they incorrectly filed the ticket then I say fight it.

 

[ADY1983]

IMO its a waste of time disputing it, my mate got a ticket pretty much outside his house double yellows I think, but it was a Pulsar and had no badges they got the car make & model wrong, wrong street and the ticket was issued at 2AM

 

[robert.saunders]

I would just pay it - it's not a points offence or declarable to insurance - it's a parking ticket that he deserved.

Using a technicality to get off when you're in the wrong really winds me up - sorry - especially when it is only a few quid and no lasting damage.
[/URL]

Actually, I disagree - you may think that odd in my line of work, but as a Parking Manager I would be more interested in why the PCN is wrong in the first place, therefore worthy of appeal. The law is there to protect, and if this PA is making lots of errors it doesn't do me, him, the relevant authority or or anyone else any defense in this industry.

However, in this instance, this appeal is only worth doing if you're 100% sure it's technically wrong.

 

[pammy]

Actually, I disagree - you may think that odd in my line of work, but as a Parking Manager I would be more interested in why the PCN is wrong in the first place, therefore worthy of appeal. The law is there to protect, and if this PA is making lots of errors it doesn't do me, him, the relevant authority or or anyone else any defense in this industry.

However, in this instance, this appeal is only worth doing if you're 100% sure it's technically wrong.

I don't dispute that at all - if the PA is making errors then the powers that be need to know so they can take any action that may be necesssary. But that has already been pointed out to them by the ticket having been disputed already. I can't see what's to be gained by pushing this even further - the fact is a parking offence was still committed, just a bit further up the road than the PCN states .

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to how much a person would want to fight something like this and why. I wouldn't but that's just me. I have more important things to worry about atm like finding somewhere to live

 

[IanA2]

I think Rob is giving sound advice. If it does result in having to be paid make sure your son pays it

 

[Benzowner]

Actually, I disagree - you may think that odd in my line of work, but as a Parking Manager I would be more interested in why the PCN is wrong in the first place, therefore worthy of appeal. The law is there to protect, and if this PA is making lots of errors it doesn't do me, him, the relevant authority or or anyone else any defense in this industry.

However, in this instance, this appeal is only worth doing if you're 100% sure it's technically wrong.

If there is a picture of the vehicle parked illegally, surely it does not matter where the offence occured. Is the person who has been caught 1000% certain of where he was parked, or did he make a mistake. Just pay up

 

[Vips]

Hi Steve

Here's my 2 p's worth.

You have 2 choices:

1. Pay the fine and put the matter to bed. You would be saving yourself alot of time, money and stress.

or

2. Fight it on the basis of technicality, as the offence never occurred at the said place. You would need to draft out your letter clearly explaining why the ticket is invalid as a result of the technicality. However, remember that if you go down this route it is a long, laboriously time consuming and stressfull period and if you lose than you are also expected to pay court costs as well

On a slightly different note. My friend parked his car on a double yellow in Marble Arch. As he came out towards the car, he saw the warden in the process of issuing the ticket, he had just started. My friend explained he's here now, and continued to get in the car and drove off, thinking the end of it. Anyway, he got about 300 yards down the road, stopped at the lights and all of a sudden saw the warden had run up and slapped the ticket on his windscren!!!

He appealed on the basis that this was not the correct procedure etc etc. He lost the appeal and pursued it in court. On the day of the hearing no one from the PCN turned up and so he won:bannana:

 

[dougal74]

The parking enforcement rules are there for the driver to abide by and the rules for the issue of tickets are there for the issuer to abide by.
If the PA did not get the correct details of the location how can we be sure that the ticket was issued properly even with photographic evidence.
I'm not saying it is right to "dodge" the ticket but by the same token if the PA had followed the proper procedure there wouldn't be any way to challenge it.
Robert also raised some other interesting points on the restriction itself (e.g. location and visbility of the time plates) how many times have members parked and then got out of the car hunting high and low to find out if they can leave their car there without commiting an offence. It is often not clear cut.

 

[robert.saunders]

My advice, as some of you well know, is based upon the job I am employed in.

However, I firmly believe in right or wrong, and if the PA has made this technically incorrect then it's plain wrong, and wrong for the parking team to expect payment.

If you receive a speeding fine NiP with the wrong road name on it, I assume therefore becuase you were speeding you would simply pay up?! Just because you get points is a trivial moot point - the law stands as it is and if it's not executed correctly it makes a mockery of the system.

Btw, per a previous post, you don't go to court on a RTA'91 PCN - you can go to appeal, and formal representation and your hearing you are ultimately entitled to is an optional attendance, as you may have a postal decision.

If anyone needs clarification on parking laws, feel free to ask, but I stand by my conviction that if this industry is to be seen to be fair and equitable, then it has to be done correctly and right. In this case, perhaps it wasn't and therefore requires a challenge.

 

[fuzzer]

I would just pay it - it's not a points offence or declarable to insurance - it's a parking ticket that he deserved.

Using a technicality to get off when you're in the wrong really winds me up - sorry - especially when it is only a few quid and no lasting damage.

The site for driving issues is pepipoo, but it's mainly for speeding:

http://www.pepipoo.com/

The fact that its only a few quid and costs a government department time and effort to reply to you makes it all the more worthwhile.