The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

...but insist on living in high population density areas their whole lives because it affords them opportunities £££ not available elsewhere. Rather churlish to now pull up the draw bridge for future generations in the name of the 'environment'.

If those people move out of the towns and cities, where would they live and where would they work?

It might be different in your neck of the woods but around here there isn’t much by way of surplus housing stock and vacant jobs in the countryside ready and waiting for health conscious city dwellers.

You post also implies that those city dwellers are there for the money prioritising greed over health, and overlooks the fact that most people living in towns and cities are on low incomes.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

AFAIK What Car are quite impartial with no axe to grind, so I'd have no reason to doubt the test figures they achieved:

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293 miles to the point where the car had to be recovered on a low loader doesn't equate to 240 miles being 'easy' to me, under those conditions.

Unless I’m missing something then there would still be 18% or 53 miles of range left. To me, that doesn’t sound any more difficult than with an ICE - drive & arrive.

There will be a need to recharge at the destination or intermediate point whilst travelling but EVs recharge quickly on fast chargers, and there are lots of them.

An I E would likely have to refill before setting off, whilst travelling, or arriving home too. To achieve an 18% remaining would require 570 mile range.

Some drivers in sone ICE cars could do that, but not many. And those that could would have to refill before and after their journey to do both legs without refueling.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Another false narrative. Childrens health and now your right to clean air.

So you don’t think clean air is a good idea?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

See UK's absolute poverty figures below. A quarter of the UK's children now live in poverty. Largely due to the new normal of unaffordable energy thanks to green premiums that profess to be needed to save the planet. Energy company profits through the roof must be an accounting error.

Obesity is no doubt attributable to a diet of cheap processed food and lack of exercise. Maybe children should have the right not to be fed cheap processed foods seeing as rights are so in vogue currently.

Absolute poverty: UK sees biggest rise for 30 years

The energy price crisis caused the sharpest increase in absolute poverty in 30 years, official figures show.

www.bbc.co.uk

if you believe people are living today without inside toilets and that kids are “going hungry” because they’re eating mars bars on the way to school, chips after school and chicken dippers and pizza for tea, that’s your privilege.

To adjust your comment “Maybe children should have the right not to be fed excessive quantities of unhealthy food, and to be given mobile phones, by parents who’ve chosen to pay £17 for a packet of 20, and to pay ludicrous money following football ?”

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The problem is that electrification is all that is permitted and other carbon neutral alternatives are dead-ended by legislation. Competition - which as the mantra goes - is the driver of innovation, is denied.

Which alternative is ready to be a cobtender? There are other options but none of them are ready at scale now and able to compete with ICE, hybrid or EV.

We have been on the cusp of mainstream EVs - with serious investment - for 30 years, even the first generation A-Class was engineered to accommodate battery packs.

Arguably EVs have had fewer hurdles to leap too, compared to say hydrogen, which probably why both have been invested in, but EVs are scalable first.

 

[markjay]

...most people living in towns and cities are on low incomes.

I didn’t know that.. sod 'em then, bring back Diesels, who cares

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

See UK's absolute poverty figures below. A quarter of the UK's children now live in poverty. Largely due to the new normal of unaffordable energy thanks to green premiums that profess to be needed to save the planet. Energy company profits through the roof must be an accounting error.

Obesity is no doubt attributable to a diet of cheap processed food and lack of exercise. Maybe children should have the right not to be fed cheap processed foods seeing as rights are so in vogue currently.

Absolute poverty: UK sees biggest rise for 30 years

The energy price crisis caused the sharpest increase in absolute poverty in 30 years, official figures show.

www.bbc.co.uk

So it was definitely only the cost of investing in renewable energy that has caused energy costs to rise dramatically in the UK causing children to go hungry?

Fancy that hitting at exactly the same time as rising import costs, changes to the price cap, Ukraine war and post pandemic surge in inflation for the first time in more than 30 years following a very long period of very low inflation. Terrible timing, especially as the investment in renewables has been happening for decades.

There is an interrelationship between energy prices and inflation, but that goes both ways.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

We've had this discussion before
Yes January may be statistically the coldest month of the year, but the temperature during the What Car test was 11C which is not actually very cold. Warmer in fact than the UK annual mean temperature (9.97C for 2023).
And few people ever do 300 miles without a stop. The requirement being discussed was (IIRC) 120 miles each way, so 240 miles in total and without the ability to charge at the destination.

Exactly so why keep regurgitating this same rubbish? It doesn't indicate the conditions that people normally use their vehicles, and it isn't relevant to the vast majority of motorists who aren't driving 240 miles return very often.

People who loathe change ("Why would I need a mobile phone / smartphone / internet / a smart TV / DAB radio) don't have to change any time soon. And most of the complainers will die before they have to change anyway.

By the time the whingers do have to change, many of these initial issues, such as range, charging speed and infrastructure will have been overcome.

If you're doing 80-100,000 miles a year, then find out how to use high speed chargers. It's not rocket science.

 

[BTB 500]

Unless I’m missing something then there would still be 18% or 53 miles of range left.

As mentioned that range was only achieved by running the battery down to the point where the car shut down, which few people would risk getting anywhere near on the road. For sure you could (and would) stop for a top up charge - I was only responding to the comment that a Model 3 LR could 'easily' do 240 miles at higher speeds without charging.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I didn’t know that.. sod 'em then, bring back Diesels, who cares

Of course you knew this. Low income people live in urban areas in the North and Midlands - always have.

Which is why they're so keen on diesels.

(Now, don't mention that the air in the Northern and Midland cities hasn't been this clean for more than 175 years, because people don't want to hear "facts.")

 

[BTB 500]

Exactly so why keep regurgitating this same rubbish?

I was only responding to the comment that a Model 3 LR could 'easily' do 240 miles at higher speeds without charging.

 

[PXW]

As mentioned that range was only achieved by running the battery down to the point where the car shut down, which few people would risk getting anywhere near on the road. For sure you could (and would) stop for a top up charge - I was only responding to the comment that a Model 3 LR could 'easily' do 240 miles at higher speeds without charging.

It can…

 

[clk320x]

It can…

But why listen to people like us who’ve lived with the car for many miles, when you can find a YouTube video which fits the narrative and regurgitate it a few times. There’s tens of other videos on YouTube where people show a real world 300 mile range but obviously those don’t get posted on here.

 

[190]

See UK's absolute poverty figures below. A quarter of the UK's children now live in poverty. Largely due to the new normal of unaffordable energy thanks to green premiums that profess to be needed to save the planet. Energy company profits through the roof must be an accounting error.

Obesity is no doubt attributable to a diet of cheap processed food and lack of exercise. Maybe children should have the right not to be fed cheap processed foods seeing as rights are so in vogue currently.

Absolute poverty: UK sees biggest rise for 30 years

The energy price crisis caused the sharpest increase in absolute poverty in 30 years, official figures show.

www.bbc.co.uk

The use of government terminology such as "Absolute Poverty" is very misleading as it creates a picture of children starving and in rags which is what real poverty is. The media of course lap up emotive language like this.

The actual truth is that a quarter of UK children live in a house hold with a living standard 40% below an average income could buy in the year ending in March 2011 after adjusting for rising prices since then. That could have been expressed in monetary terms which at a guess would be at least £20,000 per year. Why can't they say that instead of using such emotive and misleading expressions.

The worst of it is that such definitions ensure that there will always be a degree of "Absolute Poverty" in the UK regardless of how wealthy the country becomes. I'm sorry but I think it's nonsense and I'll wager some of us here were brought up in "Absolute Poverty" by that definition, me included. The big difference is 60 or 70 years back our parents would have been appalled at being described as being in such a category and wouldn't have had their hand out for more benefits.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

As mentioned that range was only achieved by running the battery down to the point where the car shut down, which few people would risk getting anywhere near on the road. For sure you could (and would) stop for a top up charge - I was only responding to the comment that a Model 3 LR could 'easily' do 240 miles at higher speeds without charging.

Running an EV down to empty is not a good idea, but neither is it for an ICE. At the end of the journey there would still be 18% remaining, that’s pretty easy.

 

[BTB 500]

But why listen to people like us who’ve lived with the car for many miles, when you can find a YouTube video which fits the narrative and regurgitate it a few times. There’s tens of other videos on YouTube where people show a real world 300 mile range but obviously those don’t get posted on here.

It's not some random YouTube video, as suggested. It was a group test under controlled conditions by an independent and impartial organisation that's been testing cars for a monthly magazine for over 50 years.

Range test: How far can electric cars go in winter?

In cold weather, electric car ranges are significantly shorter than when it's warm. To find out what you can realistically expect, we drove 12 models until they died

www.whatcar.com

Please feel free to post real-world videos supporting a 300 mile motorway range though. I had a quick look and couldn't find any offhand ... the first three I turned up got 204 / 264 / 284 miles at around 70 mph, depending on the ambient temp. The last one also involved running the car till it died by the side of the road, the other two stopped at 2% or so remaining.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I'll wager some of us here were brought up in "Absolute Poverty" by that definition, me included. The big difference is 60 or 70 years back our parents would have been appalled at being described as being in such a category and wouldn't have had their hand out for more benefits.

I suspect many of us were indeed bought up “in poverty”, and more recently too. However I also suspect that most people today would have a similar response to be described in such a category.

There will always be a minority who relish being on benefits and wouldn’t want it any other way, however given the chance I dare say most would wish to be in a different position given the choice.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Something I hadn’t realised is that EV recovery for a completely flat battery isn’t hard to come by. FIAT will provide it for the first 8 years - the duration of the battery warranty - and my insurer does too.

Like all types of recovery I would prefer to never have to use it, but it takes away much of the risk (if not inconvenience) associated with running low on charge and getting caught out.

 

[ChipChop]

The use of government terminology such as "Absolute Poverty" is very misleading as it creates a picture of children starving and in rags which is what real poverty is. The media of course lap up emotive language like this.

The actual truth is that a quarter of UK children live in a house hold with a living standard 40% below an average income could buy in the year ending in March 2011 after adjusting for rising prices since then. That could have been expressed in monetary terms which at a guess would be at least £20,000 per year. Why can't they say that instead of using such emotive and misleading expressions.

The worst of it is that such definitions ensure that there will always be a degree of "Absolute Poverty" in the UK regardless of how wealthy the country becomes. I'm sorry but I think it's nonsense and I'll wager some of us here were brought up in "Absolute Poverty" by that definition, me included. The big difference is 60 or 70 years back our parents would have been appalled at being described as being in such a category and wouldn't have had their hand out for more benefits.

No one has attempted to paint a picture of poverty in the UK featuring starving children or people in rags.

Energy poverty is the current UK reality. Not turning the heating on when cold or not cooking wholesome food because you dread the resulting energy bill has serious health consequences for certain demographics. You would have thought that post pandemic this would be writ large in peoples minds but no.

 

[BTB 500]

Running an EV down to empty is not a good idea, but neither is it for an ICE. At the end of the journey there would still be 18% remaining, that’s pretty easy.

Well no, because that 53 miles is based on driving the car till it shuts down ... 10-20 miles past the point where 0% is shown. Not many owners would choose to to do this on a public road, so the usable remaining range is less than suggested. Per the owner's manual:

Discharging the Battery to 0% may result in damage to vehicle components. To protect against a complete discharge, Model 3 enters a low-power consumption mode when the displayed charge level drops to approximately 0%. In this mode, the Battery stops supporting the onboard electronics and auxiliary low voltage battery. Once this low-power consumption mode is active, immediately plug in Model 3 to prevent a jump start and low voltage battery replacement.

Also only 55% of the What Car mileage was done at 70 mph - the rest was simulated stop/start urban driving (with regen braking) and 50 mph cruising. So 'long trip' range from 100% to shutdown at a steady 70 would have been less than they reported.