The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

Good to see that an extra ten million passengers flew through Heathrow last year.

Maybe Mr Khan should extend the ULEZ out to enclose Gatwick, and Heathrow. Charge 12.50 per person on board a plane - inbound and outbound. That would include London City as well.

81,000,000 *12.50 (and add about 2% to 4% for crew on top). That's a cool billion.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Just back from renting a Volvo XC40 EV in the French Alps - which worked out cheaper than renting ICE. (£30/day including fuel - BA / Budget rentacar - but see below)

No fan of SUV's, but seemed harmless as an SUV. Build, Noise, Vibration, and ride quality was fine, as was the User interface.

Much higher quality experience than a Tesla 3 or Y, and more intuitive to drive.

420 kms / 275 miles "in the tank" from Budget which is an OK range. Actual range was exactly as predicted overall, but shorter going up mountains and much longer coming down

Topped up the car from my rental property so no fuel cost to me. A saving of about £80 over petrol - not a lot but worth having.

I did check prices in a restaurant car park, 37 cents per KwH, so that 9 cents or 8 pence per mile, if I'd needed to. Call it 10p per mile cheaper than using petrol, IF you can't top up for free.)

Kept an eye on local charger availability. Only once saw chargers where there wasn't one available.

Would I buy a Volvo XC40 Recharge? No, but I wouldn't buy an SUV. Would I rent one again? Certainly, but I'd rather try a Polestar or hatchback sized one next time

.

 

[BTB 500]

Good to see that an extra ten million passengers flew through Heathrow last year.

(81 million, up from 71 million)

That should nicely offset all the CO2 reductions from the move to EV

Saw today that lifecycle figures published by Polestar give 112,000 km as the point where a Polestar 2 breaks even in terms of CO2 against an equivalent petrol Volvo XC40 (using averaged 'global electricity mix' for charging).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Saw today that lifecycle figures published by Polestar give 112,000 km as the point where a Polestar 2 breaks even in terms of CO2 against an equivalent petrol Volvo XC40 (using averaged 'global electricity mix' for charging).

For sure, but obviously "global electricity mix" isn't relevant for Europeans, who use a cleaner electricity mix

Four years ago, AutoExpress reckoned that "current" European electricity would effectively halve the lifetime number from 50 tonnes to 27 tonnes

"That 50-tonne figure for the Polestar 2 is based upon the global electricity mix, however, and falls to 42 tonnes when cleaner European electricity is used as the basis for calculations. If wind power alone is used to charge the Polestar 2’s batteries, it would be responsible for just 27 tonnes of CO2 over its lifecycle. Those figures mean in Europe a Polestar 2 is responsible for 27.6 per cent less CO2 than the XC40, and could be up to 53.4 per cent cleaner."

How green are electric cars? Polestar data shows ICE trailing EV | Auto Express

Electric car maker reveals whole-life CO2 emissions of the Polestar 2 are better than a petrol XC40 - but EV is only 14% cleaner with global energy mix

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

One tonne of CO2 is a return flight to the States.

 

[BTB 500]

For sure, but obviously "global electricity mix" isn't relevant for Europeans, who use a cleaner electricity mix

Four years ago, AutoExpress reckoned that "current" European electricity would effectively halve the lifetime number from 50 tonnes to 27 tonnes

"That 50-tonne figure for the Polestar 2 is based upon the global electricity mix, however, and falls to 42 tonnes when cleaner European electricity is used as the basis for calculations. If wind power alone is used to charge the Polestar 2’s batteries, it would be responsible for just 27 tonnes of CO2 over its lifecycle. Those figures mean in Europe a Polestar 2 is responsible for 27.6 per cent less CO2 than the XC40, and could be up to 53.4 per cent cleaner."

How green are electric cars? Polestar data shows ICE trailing EV | Auto Express

Electric car maker reveals whole-life CO2 emissions of the Polestar 2 are better than a petrol XC40 - but EV is only 14% cleaner with global energy mix

www.autoexpress.co.uk

How many years are projected 'lifetime' CO2 figures based on? Do they use the same figure for EV and ICE cars?

 

[Bellow]

Saw today that lifecycle figures published by Polestar give 112,000 km as the point where a Polestar 2 breaks even in terms of CO2 against an equivalent petrol Volvo XC40 (using averaged 'global electricity mix' for charging).

A kick in the **** off 70,000 miles! Not many first owners are going to be 'cleaner' in that over petrol. That will fall to subsequent owners and whatever remains of the vehicle's life post 70,000 miles. And still, bio-fuels are shunned.

 

[Bellow]

For sure, but obviously "global electricity mix" isn't relevant for Europeans, who use a cleaner electricity mix

Is that going to hold true with increasing demand from, eg, increased electrical domestic/business heating, increased number of EVs, AI, etc?

 

[ALFAitalia]

One tonne of CO2 is a return flight to the States.

According to figures from German nonprofit Atmosfair, flying from London to New York and back generates about 986kg of CO2 per passenger. There are 56 countries where the average person emits less carbon dioxide that that in a whole year!!!!!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Is that going to hold true with increasing demand from, eg, increased electrical domestic/business heating, increased number of EVs, AI, etc?

Exactly. We all know that fossil fuel is being phased out of the grid and that they're making insane improvements in efficiency of all kinds of kit.

(UK's using 20% less electricity than 20 years ago etc.)

Yes, as Europe gets an even greener mix, the EV will create far less CO2.

But two people taking a holiday in Spain will still create far more CO2 than a year's worth of motoring.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

According to figures from German nonprofit Atmosfair, flying from London to New York and back generates about 986kg of CO2 per passenger. There are 56 countries where the average person emits less carbon dioxide that that in a whole year!!!!!

As I said, one return flight to the States is a tonne of CO2.

So, switching to an EV from your old ICE "might" save an averaged tonne of CO2 a year in the long term, but when 10 million more passengers flight in and out of Heathrow during 2023, they've just blown away that saving.

 

[Bellow]

Exactly. We all know that fossil fuel is being phased out of the grid and that they're making insane improvements in efficiency of all kinds of kit.

(UK's using 20% less electricity than 20 years ago etc.)

Yes, as Europe gets an even greener mix, the EV will create far less CO2.

In theory - but the additional demands aren't IMO well enough specified for me to be as sanguine as you.

But two people taking a holiday in Spain will still create far more CO2 than a year's worth of motoring.

As I said, one return flight to the States is a tonne of CO2.

So, switching to an EV from your old ICE "might" save an averaged tonne of CO2 a year in the long term, but when 10 million more passengers flight in and out of Heathrow during 2023, they've just blown away that saving.

Keep seeing you highlight the harm from air transport but never see anyone responding. Wonder why that is?....

 

[clk320x]

Keep seeing you highlight the harm from air transport but never see anyone responding. Wonder why that is?....

Because there’s no reasonable alternative to jet-fuelled propelled air travel at the moment? but when there is then that’s great… an EV is a reasonable alternative to ICE powered vehicle, so why not use it… unless you do 300+ miles a day non-stop without a break etc etc.

 

[ALFAitalia]

As I said, one return flight to the States is a tonne of CO2.

So, switching to an EV from your old ICE "might" save an averaged tonne of CO2 a year in the long term, but when 10 million more passengers flight in and out of Heathrow during 2023, they've just blown away that saving.

True.....but whichever way you look at it, the more EVs on the road the less CO overal...no matter how many people fly.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

In theory - but the additional demands aren't IMO well enough specified for me to be as sanguine as you.

Do you not think that we "ought" to be using far more power today than we were 20 years ago, given all the heating, air con, and tech that we use today compared to a couple of decades ago?

Look around you: your boiler, cooker, telly, computer, vacuum cleaner, lighting : aren't they all more efficient than they were two, four, or six decades ago?

Keep seeing you highlight the harm from air transport but never see anyone responding. Wonder why that is?....

It's because you prefer not to do anything about it.
No-one's turning away a tourist, or giving up their holiday.

But Mr Starmer will be on it like a bonnet. He'll tax incoming tourists as well as hardworking families going off on holiday..... won't he?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Because there’s no reasonable alternative to jet-fuelled propelled air travel at the moment? but when there is then that’s great… an EV is a reasonable alternative to ICE powered vehicle, so why not use it… unless you do 300+ miles a day non-stop without a break etc etc.

Pardon? You mean there was no alternative to me flying to Geneva off season for a couple of weeks?

Are you sure about that?

When I could have stayed closer to home ? Or even driven there myself in an ICE car and emitted less CO2 ?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Not if you are on you own....the average car kicks out about 172 grams per kilometer traveled whereas the average long haul flight only makes about 102g per km per passenger (domestic flights are worse at about 133...... obviously most people don't go on holiday alone (I do go ski-ing alone!).....so four people in the car brings it down to 43g per km.
But of course that offset by long haul flights going much further. But just driving to Geneva it could be close......and you might have emissions from the ferry to take into account!!
Off course driving anywhere more than a couple of thousand miles is not a practical option for most....especially if there is a big ocean in the way!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

True.....but whichever way you look at it, the more EVs on the road the less CO overal...no matter how many people fly.

For sure. But if we actually wanted to reduce CO2 emission, the faster path is to reduce journeys: by plane and/or by car.

Not that I've got anything against 150,000 Chinese students flying to the UK each year, with an average of 150,000 dependents, generating at least £50,000 per person for the UK economy.

2.5 tonnes per person return, call that 750,000 tonnes of CO2 every year, just on flights for 300,000 people.

 

[markjay]

This was common across France and Switzerland:

 

[markjay]

The obvious issue with EVs, is that the data is so diverse, that you can use it to demonstrate almost any point of view.

Range in the classic one, you'll get half the WLTP when driving at high speed in cold weather, and you'll exceed the WLTP by some margin when driving on slower roads on sunny summer days.

And the big con is when the reviewers use a 'typical mix'....

In other words, if you give me the result that you want to get, I'll reverse-engineer for you the 'typical mix' that will yield it.....

(A friend of mine at uni once wrote a piece of software that he called Fixtivia, essentially the input was the statistical coefficient that you wanted to get, and the number of data points, and the software produced columns of totally fake 'raw data' that would yield the result that you were after.........)