The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

The good news is that I see more and more of this in the UK (having seen it in France and Switzerland):

Aye, but it’s nonsensical advertising puff, isn’t it?

“We use renewable energy so that other people don’t be using it instead of us.”

 

[Steveml63]

Aye, but it’s nonsensical advertising puff, isn’t it?

“We use renewable energy so that other people don’t be using it instead of us.”

Not really - the utility providers use “wheeling”
This means they purchase renewable energy from anywhere in the UK and then “wheel” it across the network to where it gets used.

 

[markjay]

Not really - the utility providers use “wheeling”
This means they purchase renewable energy from anywhere in the UK and then “wheel” it across the network to where it gets used.

Had to Google it....:

Wheeling (electric power transmission) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I think that the point that MikeinWimbledon is making, is that a certain amount of renewable energy is being produced across the UK, and diverting some of it to EV chargers doesn't make any difference overall, other than giving the EV owners a nice warm feeling that they are as Green as can be.

 

[markjay]

It would have made sense in a scenario where there are two power plants, one renewable and the other fossil fuel (or nuclear), and when the EV charging providers purchase the energy from one or the other, the relevant plant increases the electricity production in order to fulfil the supply contracts.

So the key question here is whether EV charging providers order electricity and then the renewable energy power plants increase production to meet the higher demand, or alternatively it's the case that the renewable energy production acroos the UK remains constant regardless of who gets to use it.

I don't have the answer.

 

[Steveml63]

Had to Google it....:

Wheeling (electric power transmission) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I think that the point that MikeinWimbledon is making, is that a certain amount of renewable energy is being produced across the UK, and diverting some of it to EV chargers doesn't make any difference overall, other than giving the EV owners a nice warm feeling that they are as Green as can be.

Once you start adding battery storage to electricity networks - they can utilize all the electricity produced by wind, solar & other renewable sources.
Previously the only viable storage was pumped hydro - but it’s much easier to put a big battery pack on a concrete plinth than it is to build pumped hydro infrastructure.
This means we will see more & more electricity produced, stored & distributed from renewable sources over the coming years - which reduces reliability on oil, gas & biomass sourced from overseas.
It might even allow prices to reduce (as if!) or at least rise more slowly and reduce price volatility caused by conflict

 

[Steveml63]

It would have made sense in a scenario where there are two power plants, one renewable and the other fossil fuel or nuclear, and when you purchase the energy from one or the other, the plant increases the electricity production to fulfil your contract.

So the key question here is whether EV charging providers order electricity and then the renewable energy power plant increases production to meet the higher demand, or it's the case that the renewable energy production remains constant regardless of who gets to use it. I don't have the answer.

Electricity storage is the key.
Remember in the old days - the network had to turn on power stations when the advert break came on in popular TV programs like Coronation Street, as people turned on thousands of electric kettles - as electricity could not be stored.

 

[markjay]

Another option would be that the cost of electricity from renewable sources is higher than the alternatives, and by being willing to pay the higher price, the EV charging providers are in fact encouraging and accelerating the renewable energy production.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Not really - the utility providers use “wheeling”
This means they purchase renewable energy from anywhere in the UK and then “wheel” it across the network to where it gets used.

Sort of.....but there is no actual way of knowing that the power you are using in you house or was generated with carbon or renewables (aside from if you use you own wind turbone or solar panels.)......all electric, no matter how it was generated, just gets connected to the grid and added to the total power available....there are not separate wires for both sources. So when a company says they are selling you 100% renewable electricity they just mean that they buy a certain percentage of there power from a renewable source.....(not even 100%.....very misleading to me).......not that the power YOU are using is from a renewable source.....not that it make any difference overall..........they are still buying their power from a good place CO wise....but it probably wont be the same power they are selling to you!!
A friend of my wife was seriously expecting new power wires when she changed power providers to one that claims to be 100% renewable......LOL.

Energy suppliers claim to sell '100% renewable' electricity without producing any green power

Majority of providers purchase certificates to ensure that the power they supply is matched up with zero-carbon sources; but Which? claims some customers are in the dark about what they're buying

www.independent.co.uk

 

[markjay]

Sort of.....but there is no actual way of knowing that the power you are using in you house or was generated with carbon or renewables (aside from if you use you own wind turbone or solar panels.)......all electric, no matter how it was generated, just gets connected to the grid and added to the total power available....there are not separate wires for both sources. So when a company says they are selling you 100% renewable electricity they just mean that they buy a certain percentage of there power from a renewable source.....(not even 100%.....very misleading to me).......not that the power YOU are using is from a renewable source.....not that it make any difference overall..........they are still buying their power from a good place CO wise....but it probably wont be the same power they are selling to you!!
A friend of my wife was seriously expecting new power wires when she changed power providers to one that claims to be 100% renewable......LOL.

Energy suppliers claim to sell '100% renewable' electricity without producing any green power

Majority of providers purchase certificates to ensure that the power they supply is matched up with zero-carbon sources; but Which? claims some customers are in the dark about what they're buying

www.independent.co.uk

So essentially when the EV charging providers pay for renewable energy, renewable energy is indeed being generated as per their requirement, but it's not necessarily the same electricity that comes out of the charger?

A bit like being paid by bank transfer then - the other party puts the money into the bank account, then you take it out - it's the 'same' money, even if the notes that you physically took out from the ATM are not the same physical notes that the other party originally paid into their bank account?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Thanks, chaps !

Yes, my point is that “we” make so much green energy and it’s a dubious claim that one type of user takes it from the grid.

Anyone with their own solar farm, panels and batteries maybe has a claim to it. (Yes @Mactech ) But even then it’s energy that could have gone into the Grid for others to use.

In general, though, EVs are more efficicient in their energy use because dynamic storage by batteries will improve the efficiency of the grid by stabilising the flow and charging off peak

 

[Mactech]

Thanks, chaps !
Anyone with their own solar farm, panels and batteries maybe has a claim to it. (Yes @Mactech ) But even then it’s energy that could have gone into the Grid for others to use.

I'm naye claimin' taye be green! Just trying to live up to my Scottish heritage, being 'frugal'
Although my father did used to say 'Yer naye so green as yer cabbagey lookiin!'.....

 

[markjay]

Thanks, chaps !

Yes, my point is that “we” make so much green energy and it’s a dubious claim that one type of user takes it from the grid.

This is certainly a possible scenario, but - as per my previous post - does anyone know if this is actually the situation in the UK?

I.e., are we always producing the maximum renewable energy that we can? Or do we increase renewable energy production based on demand for renewable energy?

What I noticed while driving through France (and also when taking the train across Italy) is that only a small proportion of the wind turbines were actually rotating - the majority had their blades feathered. I assumed it was down to low-demand/over-capacity.

But possibly the situation in the UK is different - do all our wind turbines produce electricity all the time?
(unless faulty, or down for maintenance, obviously).

 

[poormansporsche]

Yes it was probably an EEG if investigating for epilepsy etc?

Well turns out it was actually a ECG. (The other Daughter has had EEGs !) The actual test part of the grand that we paid privately was minimal, the rest was consultant fees to review the results, her medical history and a medication review.

According to the Wife , A and E refused the ECG and any other treatment because like the health insurance company they just don't want to know if it's physical health problems caused by already diagnosed mental health issues. Apparently it's a common problem and we have been given a sheet of paper from a particular help charity that quotes a certain regulation that forces a hospital to admit your child, whether they want to or not. We have not used this as yet as we then lose any rights as to what treatment is done.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

This is certainly a possible scenario, but - as per my previous post - does anyone know if this is actually the situation in the UK?

I.e., are we always producing the maximum renewable energy that we can? Or do we increase renewable energy production based on demand for renewable energy?

What I noticed while driving through France (and also when taking the train across Italy) is that only a small proportion of the wind turbines were actually rotating - the majority had their blades feathered. I assumed it was down to low-demand/over-capacity.

But possibly the situation in the UK is different - do all our wind turbines produce electricity all the time?
(unless faulty, or down for maintenance, obviously).

Didn’t we talk about this before?

It might be maintenance or scheduled maintenance

The wind can be too slow or too fast

The local network many have all the energy that it needs, and it has to balance inputs with its outputs. There’s no way of storing spare juice generally - with a few exceptions like pumping water up and down mountains.

And there are protection circuits if they sense flocks of birds are around

 

[markjay]

Didn’t we talk about this before?

It might be maintenance or scheduled maintenance

The wind can be too slow or too fast

The local network many have all the energy that it needs, and it has to balance inputs with its outputs. There’s no way of storing spare juice generally - with a few exceptions like pumping water up and down mountains.

And there are protection circuits if they sense flocks of birds are around

No idea, but most of the time it seemed that less than a quarter of the wind turbines were rotating (and there were dozens, if not hundreds of them), so this is unlikely to be due to maintenance, but again I don't know the reason for it - I wonder if anyone does? Also, the wind (too slow / too fast) clearly wasn't the issue in this case, because a significant number of turbines were still rotating.

To my mind, the only logical explanation that I could think of is that they were deliberately feathered due to low demand, unless someone knows another reason?

The potential issue is that the French may be good and producing energy, but not so good at transporting it - so possibly these wind turbines also provide electricity locally, and therefore can't assist when there's high demand elsewhere in the country? Just a guess on my part, though.

 

[ALFAitalia]

So essentially when the EV charging providers pay for renewable energy, renewable energy is indeed being generated as per their requirement, but it's not necessarily the same electricity that comes out of the charger?

A bit like being paid by bank transfer then - the other party puts the money into the bank account, then you take it out - it's the 'same' money, even if the notes that you physically took out from the ATM are not the same physical notes that the other party originally paid into their bank account?

Not necessarily..see the feature I linked with my post.......you don't need to be selling anything like 100% renewable power to say that you are selling 100% renewable power!!!

 

[markjay]

Not necessarily..see the feature I linked with my post.......you don't need to be selling anything like 100% renewable power to say that you are selling 100% renewable power!!!

Can this not be challenged as false advertising? e.g. by the ASA?

 

[Dryce]

So the key question here is whether EV charging providers order electricity and then the renewable energy power plants increase production to meet the higher demand, or alternatively it's the case that the renewable energy production acroos the UK remains constant regardless of who gets to use it.

I don't have the answer.

I think the answer is that they don't.

The supply is in principle prioritised supply portfolio: nuclear always on, as much renewables as available, fossil fuel and external sources from Europe filling the gap.

I suspect the only effect of having some customers contract for renewables is that it it might put the price up if there is some circumstance where affects the cheapest configuration of supply.

But it would appear that in general the strategy for the Grid is that they source in the priority above barring technical factors.

So in practical terms having one group of customers pay to be able to claim their electricity is supplied by renewables from that portfolio is essentially meaningless. It's paying for a label.

 

[markjay]

I think the answer is that they don't.

The supply is in principle prioritised supply portfolio: nuclear always on, as much renewables as available, fossil fuel and external sources from Europe filling the gap.

I suspect the only effect of having some customers contract for renewables is that it it might put the price up if there is some circumstance where affects the cheapest configuration of supply.

But it would appear that in general the strategy for the Grid is that they source in the priority above barring technical factors.

So in practical terms having one group of customers pay to be able to claim their electricity is supplied by renewables from that portfolio is essentially meaningless. It's paying for a label.

As a layman, I think that this is certainly one area when AI combined with Quantum Computing (still in its infancy, I agree) could make a massive change, by continuously optimising the energy production and the grid supply in real time.

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
To answer many questions about UK electricity generation - the link below is worth a look (especially at different times of the day)
It shows energy sources & CO2 for each method of generation!

Energy Dashboard - real time and historical GB electricity data, carbon emissions and UK generation sites mapping

Live and historical GB National Grid electricity data, showing generation, demand and carbon emissions and UK generation sites mapping with API subscription service.

www.energydashboard.co.uk

Cheers
Steve