The EV fact thread

[philnewmerc]

Exactly, which is why Councils have to force people out of their cars and into expensive, and empty, public transport.

The EV discount was just a greenwashed nudge to kick the whole process off. Towns and cities need to get people out of vehicles in town centres, and taxes are the obvious way forward. Initially on parking but increasingly through congestion charges.

Why are taxis the way forward? Each one has one passenger in it - that is still a big box clogging up the road with one person in it. The only advantage of that is the private cars parked on streets is reduced.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

There is no doubt that the cost of used EV's has dropped substantially. I'm coming up to 10 years ownership of my W204 and have started to actively think about what next. I'm thinking smaller next time as I may be driving it when I'm 80 so there are some easy comparisons to be made between an EV and a petrol for example ID3 vs Golf or A3 or A class. The conclusion I've come too so far is the EV price has to drop right down to the level of an equivalent petrol for it to be an economic option as the fuel savings for my low annual miles has to overcome the increased cost of EV insurance and likely further steep depreciation. EV Insurance quotes I've obtained are a minimum 40 - 50% higher than a petrol and I'm thinking insurance won't get any cheaper as I get nearer 80. If that isn't enough I'm just not inspired by what's available. The ID3 should have been optimal but the interior looks cheap and there is a dire lack of physical buttons for every day operations. It's looking like another petrol at the moment.

Amen. I've been down that same path, albeit with deliberately reduced annual mileages.

With home charging, I could maybe save a grand on fuel, a grand which would be more than offset by increased insurance, cost of purchase, and maintenance cost "risk."

Would love to switch "just for the tech interest," but at the moment my conclusion has me looking back to big engined saloons emitting a quarter or a a third of my beloved older V8's.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Why are taxis the way forward? Each one has one passenger in it - that is still a big box clogging up the road with one person in it. The only advantage of that is the private cars parked on streets is reduced.

I didn't say they were. I said that taxes are the way to push the working class out of their cars (and onto buses, bikes and shanks' pony.)

My daughter, who has no desire to own a car at 26, would argue that using a taxi three times a week means that she doesn't park a car on the street in SE1. and isn't tempted to use a three grand a year old Polo for any marginal weekend trip.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It's not that simple.

The insurance group for my 1.6L NA 2016 Suzuki was 10 points lower than the 2017 1.4L Turbo model that replaced it a year later. It's not easy to compare insurance groups by picking two 'similar' models.

My IONIQ 5 insurance cost the same as the Suzuki, BTW.

Thanks for proving my point.

It is easy to compare insurance groups for EV's and ICE. You just go online and get a quote.

Yes, newer, more powerful Suzukis are more expensive to insure than the Suzuki that they replace.

Anyone can go online and compare their insurance quote for a Hyundai Ioniq 5 with whatever they think is its alternative.

Point remains, for young drivers - the age group most likely to switch to EV - a group 34 is still going to be expensive.

 

[philnewmerc]

I didn't say they were. I said that taxes are the way to push the working class out of their cars (and onto buses, bikes and shanks' pony.)

My daughter, who has no desire to own a car at 26, would argue that using a taxi three times a week means that she doesn't park a car on the street in SE1. and isn't tempted to use a three grand a year old Polo for any marginal weekend trip.

Apologies. Taxes lol

Got a bee in my bonnet about taxis as they're growing in popularity but are even more of a menace imho as they're driven by people who understand box junctions even less than joe public, which is pretty incredible.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Apologies. Taxes lol

Got a bee in my bonnet about taxis as they're growing in popularity but are even more of a menace imho as they're driven by people who understand box junctions even less than joe public, which is pretty incredible.

The dreaded Prius and Ioniq....

And then there's the Kamikaze food delivery driver, employed by "hardworking. financially pressed folk " to scamper around town delivering £50 suppers, because hardworking, financially pressed folk don't have time to put a ten quid lasagne or five pound tray of sausages and chips into an oven for 30 minutes...

 

[ToeKnee]

Apologies. Taxes lol

Got a bee in my bonnet about taxis as they're growing in popularity but are even more of a menace imho as they're driven by people who understand box junctions even less than joe public, which is pretty incredible.

The amount of taxis on the road is decreasing at a rapid rate, while the amount of private hire (mini cabs/Uber) is increasing far too much! Got a bee in my bonnet about people not knowing the difference between taxis and private hire!

 

[ALFAitalia]

Because to the average bloke like me....they both do exactly the same job....get you from A to B....dont care which I use the be honest....usually the mini cab is rather cheaper than the black....at least it is around here.

 

[ToeKnee]

Because to the average bloke like me....they both do exactly the same job....get you from A to B....dont care which I use the be honest....usually the mini cab is rather cheaper than the black....at least it is around here.

Ah, so they're like caravans then? All look exactly the same and do the same job, get in the way on country roads

 

[ALFAitalia]

Not when I'm towing them......solo cars get in MY way!!!.....I even overtake a few!!

 

[markjay]

Thanks for proving my point.

It is easy to compare insurance groups for EV's and ICE. You just go online and get a quote.

Yes, newer, more powerful Suzukis are more expensive to insure than the Suzuki that they replace.

Anyone can go online and compare their insurance quote for a Hyundai Ioniq 5 with whatever they think is its alternative.

Point remains, for young drivers - the age group most likely to switch to EV - a group 34 is still going to be expensive.




View attachment 158645

The Suzuki 1.6L NA is group 12, the same model with the 1.4L Turbo engine is group 22.

The IONIQ 5 is on a higher group, but they both cost around the same to insure - though the Suzuki is with Aviva while the IONIQ 5 is with LV.

The IONIQ 5 is 160kW / 73kW / 213bhp, and as a hatchback that is 4.6m long and 1.9m wide, not sure what ICE car with ~200+bhp it should be compared with, for insurance group comparison purposes?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The Suzuki 1.6L NA is group 12, the same model with the 1.4L Turbo engine is group 22.

The IONIQ 5 is on a higher group, but they both cost around the same to insure - though the Suzuki is with Aviva while the IONIQ 5 is with LV.

The IONIQ 5 is 160kW / 73kW / 213bhp, and as a hatchback that is 4.6m long and 1.9m wide, not sure what ICE car with ~200+bhp it should be compared with, for insurance group comparison purposes?

Exactly. As you say, anyone can get comparison quotes for the like for like insurance costs for their own insurance situation, at any one moment in time.

It's down to the individual to work out whether they can insure a Group 34 EV as cheaply as an ICE

 

[Dryce]

The IONIQ 5 is 160kW / 73kW / 213bhp, and as a hatchback that is 4.6m long and 1.9m wide, not sure what ICE car with ~200+bhp it should be compared with, for insurance group comparison purposes?

I've been looking at insuring a PHEV or EV and the prices have been higher than my current VW SUV - by 50% to 100%.

I would add that we have never found insurance groups to be a very consistent indicator of quotes - we've traditionally tended to find MBs and BMWs reasonable to insure over the years.

(Changing cars at the moment is quite a troubling and perplexing process.)

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Applying logic to insurance quotes - without understanding the full algorithm and risk factors - is fighting a losing battle. There are too many factors to understand. Anyone who thinks otherwise, explain this:

Smart ForFour 1.0
Power 71 PS
Top speed 94 mph
0-62 mph 16.9 seconds
Insurance group 2
Premium £260

Fiat 500e
Power 95 PS
Top speed 93 mph
0-62 mph 9.0 seconds
Insurance group 16
Premium £154 (full year equivalent))

Mercedes ML 63 AMG
Power 510 PS
0-62 mph 5.0 seconds (but much quicker in reality)
Top speed 155 mph (limited, much faster unlimited)
Insurance group 50
Premium £278

All cars have the same drivers, kept at the same address, same excesses, same No Claims Discount, same annual mileage, same social, domestic, commuting and business use, same insurer, same everything.

I only have one EV so I can only base this comment on a sample of one, but the terribly slow Smart with a dinky 1.0 petrol engine looks very very expensive compared to the other examples, especially when it’s the just about the lowest insurance group car available.

 

[philnewmerc]

Applying logic to insurance quotes - without understanding the full algorithm and risk factors - is fighting a losing battle. There are too many factors to understand. Anyone who thinks otherwise, explain this:

Smart ForFour 1.0
Power 71 PS
Top speed 94 mph
0-62 mph 16.9 seconds
Insurance group 2
Premium £260

Fiat 500e
Power 95 PS
Top speed 93 mph
0-62 mph 9.0 seconds
Insurance group 16
Premium £154 (full year equivalent))

Mercedes ML 63 AMG
Power 510 PS
0-62 mph 5.0 seconds (but much quicker in reality)
Top speed 155 mph (limited, much faster unlimited)
Insurance group 50
Premium £278

All cars have the same drivers, kept at the same address, same excesses, same No Claims Discount, same annual mileage, same social, domestic, commuting and business use, same insurer, same everything.

I only have one EV so I can only base this comment on a sample of one, but the terribly slow Smart with a dinky 1.0 petrol engine looks very very expensive compared to the other examples, especially when it’s the just about the lowest insurance group car available.

Yeah I've never noticed insurance group had any relation to premium.

Btw I was told by my insurance company (Admiral) that you could only use your no claims discount on one car at a time... ?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Yeah I've never noticed insurance group had any relation to premium.

Btw I was told by my insurance company (Admiral) that you could only use your no claims discount on one car at a time... ?

The question you need to ask is whether they will “mirror” your no claims discount. It still isn’t a guarantee that they’ll do it, I suspect it’s based upon risk profile. I also suspect that the more cars you have insured with them, the more likely they are to do it, as at any one time you can only drive as many as there are named drivers.

 

[markjay]

Applying logic to insurance quotes - without understanding the full algorithm and risk factors - is fighting a losing battle. There are too many factors to understand. Anyone who thinks otherwise, explain this:

Smart ForFour 1.0
Power 71 PS
Top speed 94 mph
0-62 mph 16.9 seconds
Insurance group 2
Premium £260

Fiat 500e
Power 95 PS
Top speed 93 mph
0-62 mph 9.0 seconds
Insurance group 16
Premium £154 (full year equivalent))

Mercedes ML 63 AMG
Power 510 PS
0-62 mph 5.0 seconds (but much quicker in reality)
Top speed 155 mph (limited, much faster unlimited)
Insurance group 50
Premium £278

All cars have the same drivers, kept at the same address, same excesses, same No Claims Discount, same annual mileage, same social, domestic, commuting and business use, same insurer, same everything.

I only have one EV so I can only base this comment on a sample of one, but the terribly slow Smart with a dinky 1.0 petrol engine looks very very expensive compared to the other examples, especially when it’s the just about the lowest insurance group car available.

The statistical liklihood of the particular model being involved in an accident, and the statistical liklihood of the particular model being stolen, also play a part.

And I don't think that these factors will be included in the insurance groups parameters, because most likely each insurer does its own risk assessment, based on the data that they have from their own claims, which can also explain in part the difference in premiums between various insurers.

In other words, if insurers relied only on the insurance group clarification, and not also on data that they have collected themselves, then all quotes from all insurers would be (nearly) the same.....

 

[Petrol Pete]

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[Dryce]

In other words, if insurers relied only on the insurance group clarification, and not also on data that they have collected themselves, then all quotes from all insurers would be (nearly) the same.....

In principle there should be consistent price convergence across the market so that you enter your data for a quote and prices end up being similar within a reasonable % variation from mainstream companies.

My observation is that since the 1990s the prices quoted vary dramatically by more than high double digit %.

In terms of variations between vehicles over the last 20 years we have always found our MB and BMW cars to have relatively low insurance costs compared with lower value cars from other popular brands.