The EV fact thread

[zipdip]

This thread is about prejudice against new technology.

Well I do not think thats right,people in general have nothing against EV,we have had EV cars ,trucks .milk floats,trolly buses,since around 1900,they all disapeared from around 1970,those milk floats were great silent delivered milk in the east end no problem,the trolly buses were fine they did the job,people who want to use public transport will use electric buses as we do now,they don't care if the bus is electric or diesel they want to get from A to B,but when it comes to cars which people have to buy then those same people will exercise their right to say no to EV cars,what we have at the moment is a gigantic battle of governments trying to force people to buy EV and giving incentives,but all that is coming to a end,Germany has started this and we all know that EV sales to companies is driven by incentives,and it looks like they are ending,including Road Tax next year,which will also hurt sales,some car makers are already pulling back from EV's VW,Mercedes,Ford,Fiat have all cut or stopped EV car production.

 

[BTB 500]

Speaking of Germany ...

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[MikeInWimbledon]

Well I do not think thats right,people in general have nothing against EV,we have had EV cars ,trucks .milk floats,trolly buses,since around 1900,they all disapeared from around 1970,those milk floats were great silent delivered milk in the east end no problem,the trolly buses were fine they did the job,people who want to use public transport will use electric buses as we do now,they don't care if the bus is electric or diesel they want to get from A to B,but when it comes to cars which people have to buy then those same people will exercise their right to say no to EV cars,what we have at the moment is a gigantic battle of governments trying to force people to buy EV and giving incentives,but all that is coming to a end,Germany has started this and we all know that EV sales to companies is driven by incentives,and it looks like they are ending,including Road Tax next year,which will also hurt sales,some car makers are already pulling back from EV's VW,Mercedes,Ford,Fiat have all cut or stopped EV car production.

That's one aspect of it.

But the thread is also full of people who believe that EV's catch fire at the first sneeze.
Climate change isn't real and it wasn't Scientists that forced Tony Blair and John Prescott to sign the Kyoto Protocol 27 years ago.
There's nothing the UK should do about climate change.
That China and India should build 2 billion ICE cars, not EV's for use in China, India, and developing countries as we go from 1.5 to 3.5 billion cars globally.
Batteries will immediately fail after 50,000 miles or six years.
Chargers won't be rolled out across Europe.
EV's can't be charged for 3-4p mile on your driveway.
That their routine drive is 600 miles in a day, with no time to stop at any point for 30 minutes to top up an EV from a fast charger, pick up food, or take a break.
No-one would want to charge their EV at work for nothing.
EV's won't get cheaper as the industry develops EV's - see the new Renault 5 and Dacia Spring

Personally, I don't want an EV yet. Not because of the drivetrain or the user interface, it's smply because I haven't driven one that I enjoy driving .... yet.
(I have however reduced my driving emissions by two thirds, having reduced miles, reduced engine size, and modernised)

(But I'm the sort who thinks that most ICE's are a waste of space compared to the S500, E500, BMW 3 series, Ford Focus, Mx5, or Boxster.)

It's not because batteries will explode shortly after the EV leaves the show room

 

[BIGDOG]

Speaking of Germany ...

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Should we mark you down as a ‘negative’ then?

 

[BTB 500]

Should we mark you down as a ‘negative’ then?

Not particularly, but it's a good example of people doing expensive 'green' stuff for good reasons but without properly considering the practicalities. Apart from anything else how was solar power ever going to work that far North in winter? Apart from the lack of daylight/sun the flat panels would get covered by ice/snow.

 

[Dryce]

Not particularly, but it's a good example of people doing expensive 'green' stuff for good reasons but without properly considering the practicalities.

Closer to home: we have issues with cost / practicality / actual greeness of Scottish ferries - both hybrid electric and the super expensive delayed ones with their LNG systems.

Problem is dogma rules over pragmatism when greens mix with politicians.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Speaking of Germany ...

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If my understanding is correct, and the diesel vessel was stood for a year until September, and they ascertained in March that it would require Eur 1.8m in repairs and renovations - just 6 months after it was retired from service - then it would not be unreasonable that assume that most if not all of those repairs and renovations were also required at the time of it’s decommission.

If so, and it’s difficult to be sure because the video is someone with a bias read the blog article of someone else with bias - of unknown origin as he even says that he doesn’t know the blog - then the accuracy of what is said can’t be 100% relied upon. Either way, if an old diesel car required repair and renovation costing around half of the cost of a brand new solar EV then it would be a contender.

Whilst the need for additional dolphins are called out as an environmental concern, there is no mention of the avoidance of localised pollution resulting from diesel fuel and emissions. Likewise whilst here is mention of the cost of the new vessel and potential for new thrusters there is no mention of the repairs already being required or the cost reduction resulting from using solar rather than diesel.

It’s interesting to hear one perspective though.

 

[ChipChop]

Climate change isn't real and it wasn't Scientists that forced Tony Blair and John Prescott to sign the Kyoto Protocol 27 years ago.
There's nothing the UK should do about climate change.

The Kyoto treaties focus was global warming not climate change.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The Kyoto treaties focus was global warming not climate change.

Aye, with the commitment to reduce CO2.

The first step in the 27 year journey the world has been on.

 

[ChipChop]

View attachment 162001

Explaining the warming periods recorded pre industrialisation would be a good start.

 

[markjay]

Explaining the warming periods recorded pre industrialisation would be a good start.

Playing the amateur sleuth (or, in this case, amateur climate scientist) is not required, not to my mind anyway, because EVs may be less harmful to the environment but ultimately it won't be significant enough to make a difference overall. Personally, I think that this entire EV thing is a giant fig leave aimed at hiding the fact that no form of personal mobility that's based on a 2-ton metal box can ever be 'green'. I fully support EVs in city centres, however, but this is purely because they eliminate exhaust gas emissions and reduce noise pollution, and not because they are 'green'. If it was down to me, farmers should be allowed to keep driving their Diesel powered Defenders in perpetually, as long as they don't get anywhere near urban areas. Etc.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Explaining the warming periods recorded pre industrialisation would be a good start.

Exactly, because the world's scientists are idiots.

Causes and Effects of Climate Change | United Nations

www.un.org

I prefer to point out that the entire CO2 saving of switching an EV is negated by one transatlantic holiday, or a couple of European trips.

Point remains, the world is electrifying , EV's don't explode if you try to charge them in the rain etc etc Hence the EV fact thread.

The elderly will soon be dead, leaving Generation X, Y and Z to run about in the next generation kit.

While some traditionalists will hold on to traditional vehicles for their own special needs.




L

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I do find comments suggesting that Givernmebts are forcing the oopulus into EVs intriguing. Am I immune to pressure or is that pressure being applied to some people but not all?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Explaining the warming periods recorded pre industrialisation would be a good start.

The planet goes through its natural cycle of warming and cooling, I don’t think I’ve any (credible) uggestion that it doesn’t.

Humans have affected the climate and availability of natural resources - especially oil - and I don’t recall any (credible) suggestion that isn’t the case.

Emissions from ICE vehicles are unpleasant at a local level, especially in urban areas, but (credible) counter arguments are think in the ground.

So what’s the compelling argument for those who can make an EV work for them not having one, and those who can’t cracking in with their ICE vehicle?

 

[ChipChop]

Playing the amateur sleuth (or, in this case, amateur climate scientist) is not required, not to my mind anyway, because EVs may be less harmful to the environment but ultimately it won't be significant enough to make a difference overall. Personally, I think that this entire EV thing is a giant fig leave aimed at hiding the fact that no form of personal mobility that's based on a 2-ton metal box can ever be 'green'. I fully support EVs in city centres, however, but this is purely because they eliminate exhaust gas emissions and reduce noise pollution, and not because they are 'green'. If it was down to me, farmers should be allowed to keep driving their Diesel powered Defenders in perpetually, as long as they don't get anywhere near urban areas. Etc.

City centres have many & various forms of public transport. That is the 'green' option. Not a proliferation of urban BEV's.
* No problem with cheap domestically manufactured urban BEV's for the disabled/ infirm. A modern day version of the UK made AC "Invacar". See Frances Renault Twizy or Citroen Ami.

Exactly, because the world's scientists are idiots.

Causes and Effects of Climate Change | United Nations

www.un.org

I prefer to point out that the entire CO2 saving of switching an EV is negated by one transatlantic holiday, or a couple of European trips.

Point remains, the world is electrifying , EV's don't explode if you try to charge them in the rain etc etc Hence the EV fact thread.

The elderly will soon be dead, leaving Generation X, Y and Z to run about in the next generation kit.

While some traditionalists will hold on to traditional vehicles for their own special needs.



View attachment 162006
L

The worlds geologists are certainly not idiots. Geological records of ancient temperature exist and are accurate. That is how we know there was an ice age just yesterday, circa 20,000 years ago.

Future generations will be walking not driving BEV's. The phasing out of personal mobility.

Regression. Not something to celebrate imo.

 

[ChipChop]

The planet goes through its natural cycle of warming and cooling, I don’t think I’ve any (credible) uggestion that it doesn’t.

Humans have affected the climate and availability of natural resources - especially oil - and I don’t recall any (credible) suggestion that isn’t the case.

Emissions from ICE vehicles are unpleasant at a local level, especially in urban areas, but (credible) counter arguments are think in the ground.

So what’s the compelling argument for those who can make an EV work for them not having one, and those who can’t cracking in with their ICE vehicle?

Indeed a changing climate is the de facto state of the planet. See geological records.

I do not find ICE vehicles unpleasant at a local/ urban level. The compelling environmental argument against endless consumerism/ having to have the latest thing such as a BEV. Self explanatory surely?

 

[BTB 500]

If my understanding is correct, and the diesel vessel was stood for a year until September, and they ascertained in March that it would require Eur 1.8m in repairs and renovations - just 6 months after it was retired from service - then it would not be unreasonable that assume that most if not all of those repairs and renovations were also required at the time of it’s decommission.

If so, and it’s difficult to be sure because the video is someone with a bias read the blog article of someone else with bias - of unknown origin as he even says that he doesn’t know the blog - then the accuracy of what is said can’t be 100% relied upon. Either way, if an old diesel car required repair and renovation costing around half of the cost of a brand new solar EV then it would be a contender.

Whilst the need for additional dolphins are called out as an environmental concern, there is no mention of the avoidance of localised pollution resulting from diesel fuel and emissions. Likewise whilst here is mention of the cost of the new vessel and potential for new thrusters there is no mention of the repairs already being required or the cost reduction resulting from using solar rather than diesel.

It’s interesting to hear one perspective though.

Valid points. I'd still be interested to know how horizontal solar panels would work out in winter with snow/ice on them and short/gloomy days. For a 100 metre crossing I'd have thought battery power with a charger to top up from each side would be a much more practical solution.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If we don’t reduce our dependency on fossil fuels then economics will. If economics fail then mother Nature will finish off the job. Makes sense to do it now/soon for those applications which have relatively viable alternatives like cars and domestic heating, to preserve oil for things which are a long way from having a viable alternative.

Future generations will be walking not driving BEV's. The phasing out of personal mobility.

Regression. Not something to celebrate imo.

If EVs enable continued personal mobility, then what’s not to like?

 

[BTB 500]

I do not find ICE vehicles unpleasant at a local/ urban level.

I worked on the South Bank (near Waterloo station) and the Strand until I retired in 2020 and never noticed any issues with air quality, even walking to/from the station in the rush hour. Before that ('80s) I was based on the Marylebone Road (A501) and that was pretty unpleasant a lot of the time. Loads of diesels back then and no emission controls. We had a first floor office with no aircon, so the choice in summer was to roast with the windows closed or choke with them open. Gotta love retail companies (British Home Stores head office).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

City centres have many & various forms of public transport. That is the 'green' option. Not a proliferation of urban BEV's.
* No problem with cheap domestically manufactured urban BEV's for the disabled/ infirm. A modern day version of the UK made AC "Invacar". See Frances Renault Twizy or Citroen Ami.

The worlds geologists are certainly not idiots. Geological records of ancient temperature exist and are accurate. That is how we know there was an ice age just yesterday, circa 20,000 years ago.

Future generations will be walking not driving BEV's. The phasing out of personal mobility.

Regression. Not something to celebrate imo.

Excellent news.

Anything that keeps old people in their city centre old folks homes is to be celebrated.

Don’t you just hate those motorway traffic jams going to work, the Lakes and the Coast ?

Leave this updated Invacar to the Young Ones

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