The EV fact thread

[Connoisseur]

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

My point was that paying 40% less than the national average (which includes much slower chargers, from 50 kW upwards) really isn't as expensive as it gets. That would be way more than the 80p average.

I didn’t say that it is as expensive as it gets, I said that it should be as expensive as it gets, because it’s often said that public charging is very expensive, especially without a membership or subscription, and especially if it’s an ultra rapid charger, and here’s where I said it.

It’s often said that charging using a public charger is very expensive and especially if you don’t pay a monthly membership or subscription cost, and even more so when using the fastest ultra rapid chargers, so I thought I’d share the facts.

I charged using an ultra rapid 150 kW charger in a public charging station, at the full tariff rate as I do not have a membership or subscription, so this should be as expensive as it gets. Here’s what it cost and calculated cost per mile.

I laid out the facts - based upon the real charging of a real EV, at a real EV charge point, and not an average based of third-party aggregation of a large number of other third-party data sets.

I did this so that those reading it could conclude for themselves, whether it’s expensive and whether it matches what is often said in this thread and elsewhere about the cost of charging.

However you yourself have concluded that it’s 40% less expensive than the average data you found on ZapMap, and based on my facts and your data I can see why you concluded that.

It’s not like I picked a single charger on an unheard of EV network, in an obscure location, with access to an exclusive rate only available to the illuminati and those with a paid for subscription.

I went to a Tesla public charge point - which is probably the most known charging network brand and the second largest network of rapid and ultra rapid chargers in the UK - and just plugged in.

When the chargers are busiest. No subscription (it would have been 11p per kW less). No restricted access (one of the biggest shopping centres in the Midlands). I just plugged it in and walked away.

You’re right to question the data though as this real world cost is a world away. Of course there are chargers that cost 80p per kWh but in most areas there’s plenty of choice if cost conscious.

To prove that it’s not a one off, if I was to drive to you, I would stop to recharge at the Tesla Superchargers in Trentham, and pay the same 48p per kWh as I did yesterday.

PS I know you like ZapMap data so it was there’s website that I checked to find out how big Tesla’s network of rapid and ultra rapid charging points is relative to it’s competitors.

The charge point operator with the most rapid and ultra-rapid electric vehicle charging points is InstaVolt, which had 1,758 charge points at the end of October 2024.

After InstaVolt, Tesla operates the most rapid and ultra-rapid charging points in the UK, with 1,685, followed by bp pulse with 1,353.

Source: EV charging statistics 2024 - Zapmap.

 

[ChipChop]

View attachment 163549

How many miles a week does an on site truck do exactly?

 

[BTB 500]

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. The average cost of energy is a meaningless statistical figure to anyone who are about to get an EV and want to know what their cost-per-mile might be.

OK but FWIW the current cost for public rapid/ultra-rapid charging appears to be 53-95p per kWh ("top 10" networks based on their number of public charging outlets):

 

[BTB 500]

Does the ZapMap data include all chargers? The reason I ask is that ZapMap doesn’t include Tesla Superchargers in their published rates.

Not 100% sure but they do generally include Tesla:

 

[markjay]

OK but FWIW the current cost for public rapid/ultra-rapid charging appears to be 53-95p per kWh ("top 10" networks based on their number of public charging outlets):


View attachment 163557

That's very interesting, but not to me

I've had my EV for over 3 years now and never once have I charged it on a 'supercharger' in the UK. I just didn't need to.

Now, the cost of electricity from service stations along France's autoroutes is indeed of relevance for me.... as I said, the use profile of EVs varies dramatically, and so does the cost of the electricity.

Most people are not in the business of canvassing, instead they are looking for data that is relevant for them. The figures you mentioned, are not....

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Not 100% sure but they do generally include Tesla:

View attachment 163558

The chart you provided is just a list of headline PAYG rates for the ten largest network providers. It looks like Tesla is not included, part of the 30% of chargers they exclude from their data - low in the small print you will see that their data covers 70% of charge points.


Strangely, further down the same page - beneath a different graph it says that the Price Index is based upon 75% of chargers. Unfortunately it provides no further information unless requesting it for business use.



The reason I believe that Tesla is one of the 30% (or 25%) excluded in their calculations is because their data is based on the data which drives the ZapMap app, which does not publish unit pricing for Tesla.

 

[BTB 500]

It’s not like I picked a single charger on an unheard of EV network, in an obscure location, with access to an exclusive rate only available to the illuminati and those with a paid for subscription.

I went to a Tesla public charge point - which is probably the most known charging network brand and the second largest network of rapid and ultra rapid chargers in the UK - and just plugged in.

When the chargers are busiest. No subscription (it would have been 11p per kW less). No restricted access (one of the biggest shopping centres in the Midlands). I just plugged it in and walked away.

You’re right to question the data though as this real world cost is a world away. Of course there are chargers that cost 80p per kWh but in most areas there’s plenty of choice if cost conscious.

To prove that it’s not a one off, if I was to drive to you, I would stop to recharge at the Tesla Superchargers in Trentham, and pay the same 48p per kWh as I did yesterday.

Tesla's rates for rapid charging other EVs at their public sites happen to be the UK's lowest though (as above, typical price given as 53p per kWh). They do also vary with location and time of day - three of the four in the Birmingham area (for example) cost more than the 48p you paid. And if there isn't one of their public sites handy (just 47 in the UK) it would likely be significantly more expensive to rapid charge somewhere else.

Of course a large percentage of people won't need to use public fast chargers very often, and probably never on a short local trip like your example.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

How many miles a week does an on site truck do exactly?

I’ll let @Connoisseuranswer for themselves but u less he’s personally involved in the project I suspect he’ll have no idea.

That said, delivering fuel around a single site sounds like a potentially good fit for an BEHGV, doesn’t it?

 

[BTB 500]

The reason I believe that Tesla is one of the 30% (or 25%) excluded in their calculations is because their data is based on the data which drives the ZapMap app, which does not publish unit pricing for Tesla.

You could well be right, but I assume they're only concerned with public sites and as Tesla only have 47 of those in the UK I'm not sure how much that would skew the data.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Of course a large percentage of people won't need to use public fast chargers very often, and probably never on a short local trip like your example.

But what happened to the argument that a large proportion of drivers - was it around 50%? - can’t charge at home and that public charging is very expensive. My post confirms that it doesn’t have to be more expensive for those that can’t charge at home or work.

All of that said, and as many of us have suggested - no more so than @markjay and @MikeInWimbledon - most people won’t have to use public fast chargea very often. I can now at you to that list too.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You could well be right, but I assume they're only concerned with public sites and as Tesla only have 47 of those in the UK I'm not sure how much that would skew the data.

Your previous calculation suggested that Tesla are 40% less expensive than the average, which is significant deviation from the weighted average excluding Tesla and other unknown charging networks.

Combine that with Tesla not being included in the average and Tesla being the second largest network of rapid and ultra rapid chargers, then the weighted impact on average weighted price would be quite significant.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Tesla's rates for rapid charging other EVs at their public sites happen to be the UK's lowest though (as above, typical price given as 53p per kWh). They do also vary with location and time of day - three of the four in the Birmingham area (for example) cost more than the 48p you paid. And if there isn't one of their public sites handy (just 47 in the UK) it would likely be significantly more expensive to rapid charge somewhere else.

Of course a large percentage of people won't need to use public fast chargers very often, and probably never on a short local trip like your example.

Tesla chargers on motorway services or close to motorway junctions - like Frankley and Solihull are typically 6-10% more expensive than those well away from motorways.

That would be like unleaded fuel being say 141.9p or 146.9p per litre rather than 133.9p per litre at motorway service stations or on motorway junctions which would be a bargain.

To be fair Frankley (North) is actually very competitive on fuel prices for a motorway service station too and they have banners visible from the road - credit to them.

Between 1600 and 2000 Tesla often charge more per unit, but for the other 20 hours per day it’s the lower pricing. Those who don’t have to charge during peak period don’t, those who do do.

Even the peak period is still much less expensive than the average quoted.

 

[markjay]

But what happened to the argument that a large proportion of drivers - was it around 50%? - can’t charge at home and that public charging is very expensive. My post confirms that it doesn’t have to be more expensive for those that can’t charge at home or work.

All of that said, and as many of us have suggested - no more so than @markjay and @MikeInWimbledon - most people won’t have to use public fast chargea very often. I can now at you to that list too.

I use the slow 4.7kW lamppost chargers when charging at home. This accounts for 90% of the charging I do in the UK. That's the cost that matters to me. Others should check what are the electricity costs from the chargers that they are likely to use most - lamppost chargers, other public chargers, shopping mall and retail park chargers, chargers at work, motorway services chargers, home charging boxes, granny cable charging.... the list is long and the rates vary greatly.

 

[BTB 500]

Your previous calculation suggested that Tesla are 40% less expensive than the average, which is significant deviation from the weighted average excluding Tesla and other unknown charging networks.

Combine that with Tesla not being included in the average and Tesla being the second largest network of rapid and ultra rapid chargers, then the weighted impact on average weighted price would be quite significant.

The RAC (which AFAIK has no axe to grind either way in respect of EVs) also monitors average charge costs - their current figures are:




Interesting that ultra-rapid charging has a lower average cost per kWh than rapid ... could that be the impact of the Tesla sites? But both had overtaken petrol and diesel in terms of pence per mile by the end of 2022:

Electric car public charging costs | RAC Charge Watch | RAC Drive

Charge Watch is the RAC's initiative that monitors the average cost of charging an electric car so that you get a fair price.

www.rac.co.uk

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I do charge it at home, and with a granny cable too, although I don’t have EV tarrif as that makes the rest of our electricity consumption more expensive. My home uses much much more electricity than my EV, so it would actually make the total cost more expensive. It doesn’t make sense for me yet, but that day may come.

Occasionally I do charge whilst I’m out and about. I’m driving an EV as an experiment. As a means of transport, EVs are so good that there is no experiment in the car itself, the real experiment is using public charging infrastructure . If I don’t use them then I won’t know what using one is like. It would also mean that when talking to others I would do so based upon theory, not practice.

I have just checked, my tariff is 22.636p per kWh so it’s very close to half being half that of the 48p per kWh cost for charging at the ultra fast Tesla Supercharger at £0.051 per mile. However if I switched to the best EV tariffs then the cost come down to around 8 per kWh or £0.018 per mile. Calculations based upon 4.4 miles/kWh achieved yesterday and the basis for the calculation.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The RAC (which AFAIK has no axe to grind either way in respect of EVs) also monitors average charge costs - their current figures are:

View attachment 163568


Interesting that ultra-rapid charging has a lower average cost per kWh than rapid ... could that be the impact of the Tesla sites? But both had overtaken petrol and diesel in terms of pence per mile by the end of 2022:


View attachment 163569

http://[URL]https://www.rac.co.uk/d...ic-car-public-charging-costs-rac-charge-watch

/[/URL]

I doubt ZapMap have an axe to grind either.

Data can be used to tell many stories, and the completeness and accuracy of the data complicates things further, as does the aggregation of data from multiples sources and making assumptions.

Aggregating data from multiple sources is often seen as delivering greater insight, however unless there is very tight control of the sources and integration between sources, then it can create a less reliable insight.

RAC, ZapMap and others will use their preferred data sources, assumptions, etc, and even though they’re different they’ll all conclude that running an EV on ultra rapid public chargers is more expensive than ICE.

I’d be disappointed if they didn’t because of cause it costs more to charge only ever using the fastest public chargers. But in reality people don’t exclusively use public chargers, ultra rapid chargers, at peak times, without memberships.

So it’s a very theoretical cost which hardly anyone would recognise as being even close to realistic. It won’t be realistic even for those who can’t charge at home because they’ll use slow chargers, discounts, etc. The true cost is much less,

 

[Connoisseur]

I’ll let @Connoisseuranswer for themselves but u less he’s personally involved in the project I suspect he’ll have no idea.

That said, delivering fuel around a single site sounds like a potentially good fit for an BEHGV, doesn’t it?

tbh I posted that mainly as an illustration of ev creep across industry, rather than any focus on range ability. That vehicle is likely only ever going to be a matter of yards/metres from its charger in any case.
As ev power finds more and more uses in industry then retail will follow and change, and vice versa.

 

[BTB 500]

RAC, ZapMap and others will use their preferred data sources, assumptions, etc, and even though they’re different they’ll all conclude that running an EV on ultra rapid public chargers is more expensive than ICE.

I’d be disappointed if they didn’t because of cause it costs more to charge only ever using the fastest public chargers. But in reality people don’t exclusively use public chargers, ultra rapid chargers, at peak times, without memberships.

So it’s a very theoretical cost which hardly anyone would recognise as being even close to realistic. It won’t be realistic even for those who can’t charge at home because they’ll use slow chargers, discounts, etc. The true cost is much less,

Not sure how much you can reduce public charging costs by through memberships etc.? Genuine question - I have no idea what sort of saving is possible.

Use of public charging will increase over time as a bigger proportion of people with no way to charge at home end up in EVs (either through incentives or lack of choice). Many of these will be less well off than a lot of current owners, and cost compared to an ICE equivalent may be a big deal to them.

For others the concept of ultra rapid top-up charging while you have a coffee etc. is pretty key for longer trips or with vehicles that don't have a great range (older, smaller, or less efficient). For the immediate future, anyway.

In terms of data points the AA also produce monthly data on charging costs & trends:

AA EV Recharge Report September 2024 | AA

Chargepoint operators at the fastest speeds are switching towards offering peak and off-peak tariffs, according to The AA’s EV Recharge Report for September.

www.theaa.com

I would personally consider them and the RAC to be fairly impartial, whereas Zapmap (for example) clearly have a vested interest in promoting the use of EVs.

It's interesting how little (relatively speaking) public charging costs vary with the charge rate. I guess a significant proportion of the cost of providing a public charger is essentially fixed overhead.

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
I think it’s time for somebody to create a home charging sharing app - so that EV drivers who are visiting another town away from home can connect with home charger owners who are prepared to let them use their charger (for a fee) - so that they can charge overnight or at any other time, to top up their cars.
Most modern EVs can travel up to 300 miles on a full charge - so it’s often the return journey that is at risk of running out of charge.
If you are staying somewhere that’s a few hundred miles from home for the weekend - it would be great to fill up your EV from a friendly home charger at the cheaper rates they offer, compared with motorway fast chargers.
Cheers
Steve