The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hi,
I think it’s time for somebody to create a home charging sharing app - so that EV drivers who are visiting another town away from home can connect with home charger owners who are prepared to let them use their charger (for a fee) - so that they can charge overnight or at any other time, to top up their cars.
Most modern EVs can travel up to 300 miles on a full charge - so it’s often the return journey that is at risk of running out of charge.
If you are staying somewhere that’s a few hundred miles from home for the weekend - it would be great to fill up your EV from a friendly home charger at the cheaper rates they offer, compared with motorway fast chargers.
Cheers
Steve

Steve, there’s a service already operating like this in the UK called JustCharge. It’s a logical extension of their original concept JustPark, ie park your car in someone’s driveway for a small fee.

At the moment they pitch JustCharge towards people who cannot charge at home rather than people travelling but ultimately it’s a relatively low cost charger for any purpose. It’s a good idea.

Community EV Charging Network | JustCharge | JustPark

Join our community charging network JustCharge. You can rent out your home EV charger for extra cash, and pre-book a charger to guarantee access.

www.justpark.com

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Not sure how much you can reduce public charging costs by through memberships etc.? Genuine question - I have no idea what sort of saving is possible.

Let’s use Tesla as an example, a membership costing £8.99 per month will allow 23-24% discount over the standard rate.



Using 4.4 miles/kWh (for a FIAT 500e) as I did on Sunday, the members rate means that ultra rapid charging can cost 8.4p per mile.

If unleaded fuel is £1.339 per litre, then at 47 MPG (for a Smart ForFour) can cost 13p per mile which is 55% more expensive.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

It's interesting how little (relatively speaking) public charging costs vary with the charge rate. I guess a significant proportion of the cost of providing a public charger is essentially fixed overhead.

Despite it often being claimed on Internet forums, social media and tabloids that there is insufficient public charging infrastructure, in reality there is currently huge oversupply of public chargers.

As a result the cost of installing and operating individual chargers and charging networks as a whole must be recovered from a very small number of ”sales”, increasing the cost significantly.

The unit cost will tumble as more people use public charge points more often, utilisation increases, and those installation and operating costs are split over a larger and larger number of “sales”.

You can see this with Tesla, there’s almost always a spare charger however their utilisation is in a completely different league compared to other EV networks and the it pricing reflects this.

It’s also why memberships and subscriptions work well as it allows a little more certainty for the operator., with a fee coming in every month and increase likelihood of use by members.

 

[markjay]

Not sure how much you can reduce public charging costs by through memberships etc.? Genuine question - I have no idea what sort of saving is possible.

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They claim it can be as low as 43p per kWh.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Good! I wish we could also impose on them to stop fighting each other, but perhaps I am asking too much.

Pardon? It's the Northern hemisphere that's fighting one another in Ukraine and the Middle East,

not the poor souls in Africa, South America, India and Australia.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Despite it often being claimed on Internet forums, social media and tabloids that there is insufficient public charging infrastructure, in reality there is currently huge oversupply of public chargers.

As a result the cost of installing and operating individual chargers and charging networks as a whole must be recovered from a very small number of ”sales”, increasing the cost significantly.

The unit cost will tumble as more people use public charge points more often, utilisation increases, and those installation and operating costs are split over a larger and larger number of “sales”.

You can see this with Tesla, there’s almost always a spare charger however their utilisation is in a completely different league compared to other EV networks and the it pricing reflects this.

It’s also why memberships and subscriptions work well as it allows a little more certainty for the operator., with a fee coming in every month and increase likelihood of use by members.

Last night I checked a 500 mile EV route to France. Plenty of options, obviously, but not one charger was in use at any of the Recharge points. Typically eight chargers at each point.

Anyone can use ABRP to check a route for themselves.

But obviously most charging is done domestically, on the street, or at the Supermarket.

Only people who don't understand how EV's are used, think that you have to go to a service area to top up.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

OK but FWIW the current cost for public rapid/ultra-rapid charging appears to be 53-95p per kWh ("top 10" networks based on their number of public charging outlets):


View attachment 163557

Good point about the high cost of ultra high speed chargers, which most EV owners will never use.

Now post the high cost of Motorway service area diesel and petrol.

 

[markjay]

Pardon? It's the Northern hemisphere that's fighting one another in Ukraine and the Middle East,

not the poor souls in Africa, South America, India and Australia.

There's no shortage of fighting in other continents.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

There's no shortage of fighting in other continents.

For sure, but it's Ukraine that's crucifying the German and European economies, relative to the USA and China.

And it's the Geopolitical risk of war in the Middle East which is terrifying global investors

and creating the record highs for gold (£2,100 up threefold on 2016)

and Bitcoin, which, at £53,000, is up 100 fold on its 2016 price

 

[markjay]

For sure, but it's Ukraine that's crucifying the German and European economies, relative to the USA and China.

And it's the Geopolitical risk of war in the Middle East which is terrifying global investors

and creating the record highs for gold (£2,100 up threefold on 2016)

and Bitcoin, which, at £53,000, is up 100 fold on its 2016 price

We can always capitulate, if it works out cheaper.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

We can always capitulate, if it works out cheaper.

Just buy low, sell high.

Isn't it delightful to see Germany has become the "sick man of Europe," with its Socialist Chancellor being kicked from one side of the country to the other, on the back of Russia's impact on its energy prices, and a collapse in demand for its Capital goods from China, and the fall in the global demand for its luxury goods?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

"Pay peanuts, get monkeys."

We've talked before about how our MP's are so badly paid for their work as they draft and amend Britain's laws

The Times today quotes the going rate for newly qualified solicitors, aged 25 to 30, working for the UK's top firms: typically £150k for a 12 hour working day.
(Roughly the same amount as that paid to our incompetent 45 year old Chancellor.)

Don't ask how much their managers and partners are paid. You really don't want to know.

US law firms in London demand 70-hour weeks — for £170,000 salaries

Newly qualified solicitors report that they routinely finish after 10.30pm

www.thetimes.com

 

[markjay]

Just buy low, sell high.

Isn't it delightful to see Germany has become the "sick man of Europe," with its Socialist Chancellor being kicked from one side of the country to the other, on the back of Russia's impact on its energy prices, and a collapse in demand for its Capital goods from China, and the fall in the global demand for its luxury goods?

There's an option for them, and it's to live under Soviet rule. Ask the East Germans, they know all about it.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

There's an option for them, and it's to live under Soviet rule. Ask the East Germans, they know all about it.

Not convinced that that would resolve the collapse in the Chinese demand for German capital equipment and luxury goods, but if you say so.

 

[markjay]

Not convinced that that would resolve the collapse in the Chinese demand for German capital equipment and luxury goods, but if you say so.

No it won't, but it will make their financial issues the least of their worries.

 

[Bellow]

So it’s a very theoretical cost which hardly anyone would recognise as being even close to realistic. It won’t be realistic even for those who can’t charge at home because they’ll use slow chargers, discounts, etc. The true cost is much less,

Not at all convinced that that's true. From my personal perspective, I'd consider taking the hit of higher cost of faster charging just to get the chore over and done with and get home to creature comforts sooner. The warped belief that in pursuit of cheaper charging I'd go and spend more money - money I'd no intention of spending - on fripperies like coffee, cinema, etc, etc, is just that - warped. I have all of that at home.

 

[Bellow]

"Pay peanuts, get monkeys."

We've talked before about how our MP's are so badly paid for their work as they draft and amend Britain's laws

The Times today quotes the going rate for newly qualified solicitors, aged 25 to 30, working for the UK's top firms: typically £150k for a 12 hour working day.
(Roughly the same amount as that paid to our incompetent 45 year old Chancellor.)

Don't ask how much their managers and partners are paid. You really don't want to know.

US law firms in London demand 70-hour weeks — for £170,000 salaries

Newly qualified solicitors report that they routinely finish after 10.30pm

www.thetimes.com

View attachment 163591

Relevant to the thread title - in what way?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Not at all convinced that that's true. From my personal perspective, I'd consider taking the hit of higher cost of faster charging just to get the chore over and done with and get home to creature comforts sooner. The warped belief that in pursuit of cheaper charging I'd go and spend more money - money I'd no intention of spending - on fripperies like coffee, cinema, etc, etc, is just that - warped. I have all of that at home.

That’s a good example of the difference in mindset between driving ICE and EV. You don’t buy coffee and cinema tickets because your car is charging, you charge because you’re buying coffee and cinema tickets.

The difference in mindset is for good reason because you have to go somewhere to refuel an ICE vehicle, but you recharge and EV whilst doing other things. You just need to change that mindset when changing to EV.

 

[Bellow]

That’s a good example of the difference in mindset between driving ICE and EV. You don’t buy coffee and cinema tickets because your car is charging, you charge because you’re buying coffee and cinema tickets.

The difference in mindset is for good reason because you have to go somewhere to refuel an ICE vehicle, but you recharge and EV whilst doing other things. You just need to change that mindset when changing to EV.

In the context of seeking the cheapest charging (when home charging isn't viable) fripperies like cinema and coffee don't feature. So, recharging is the event and many will resent its intrusion.

 

[BTB 500]

Let’s use Tesla as an example, a membership costing £8.99 per month will allow 23-24% discount over the standard rate.

View attachment 163584

Using 4.4 miles/kWh (for a FIAT 500e) as I did on Sunday, the members rate means that ultra rapid charging can cost 8.4p per mile.

If unleaded fuel is £1.339 per litre, then at 47 MPG (for a Smart ForFour) can cost 13p per mile which is 55% more expensive.

As we know Tesla are the cheapest of the 'major' networks to start with, so any discounting will obviously result in an even lower rate. But as mentioned they only have 47 public charging sites across the whole of the UK, so that wouldn't be available to a lot of people on a similar short/local trip. If you include membership deals then there are also ways to get a bit of discount on unleaded - Costco is the one that springs to mind, but again only if you have one handy of course.