The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

A product made X number of thousand of miles away has a much higher carbon footprint than the same product made 'locally'.

There’s no need to explain that transporting goods further uses more fossil fuel, as that’s not answering the question I asked you. I asked how you reached the conclusion that carbon footprint is of no importance in my opinion, see here:

A products carbon footprint is of no importance in your opinion?

For what it’s worth, when I can, and when there’s a choice - and it makes sense to do so - I often try to buy locally. Meat from the next village, milk from a few villages away, bread frroma few villages further, water from Buxton, sanitary ware from Rugeley, crockery from Stoke on Trent and Derby, cutlery from Sheffield, soft furnishings from Long Eaton, carpets from Kidderminster, vacuum cleaner from Chard, chocolates from Emmerdale , lingerie from Wetherfielld , shoes from Northampton, leather goods from Shepton Mallet and Warminster, jewellery from Birmingham, yacht from Plymouth, caravan from Kingston upon Hull.

Then it gets further afield, albeit sometimes by choice to be relatively near even if there’s a local option available. For example I could drive a Toyota from Derby but I choose not to. Home appliances from Germany, TVs from Germany, cleaning equipment from Germany, boiler from Germany,, cars from Germany (with some exceptions), cookware from France, kitchen units from Italy (not our choice), watches from Switzerland. Although I can’t help but think that some components - especially electronics - are from China and the far East.

Some things are a little trickier to buy from the UK and Europe. I’ve not yet managed to find UK manufactured mobile phones, mobile phone charging cables, tablets, laptops, low cost electronics (like security cameras, sensors, and screens), and low cost bits and pieces. Men’s pants for example, UK manufactured pants are a bu99er to find. As are UK manufactured private jets.

Please do share where you manage to find 100% UK manufactured small electronics, cables, inexpensive clothing, and general low cost bits and pieces, as I’m sure many of us would love to support local manufacturing. Better still affordable 100% UK manufactured, because in my experience buying local is often much more expensive than buying from further afield, and that’s a luxury that too few can justify.

 

[ChipChop]

There’s no need to explain that transporting goods further uses more fossil fuel, as that’s not answering the question I asked you. I asked how you reached the conclusion that carbon footprint is of no importance in my opinion, see here:


For what it’s worth, when I can, and when there’s a choice - and it makes sense to do so - I often try to buy locally. Meat from the next village, milk from a few villages away, bread frroma few villages further, water from Buxton, sanitary ware from Rugeley, crockery from Stoke on Trent and Derby, cutlery from Sheffield, soft furnishings from Long Eaton, carpets from Kidderminster, vacuum cleaner from Chard, chocolates from Emmerdale , lingerie from Wetherfielld , shoes from Northampton, leather goods from Shepton Mallet and Warminster, jewellery from Birmingham, yacht from Plymouth, caravan from Kingston upon Hull.

Then it gets further afield, albeit sometimes by choice to be relatively near even if there’s a local option available. For example I could drive a Toyota from Derby but I choose not to. Home appliances from Germany, TVs from Germany, cleaning equipment from Germany, boiler from Germany,, cars from Germany (with some exceptions), cookware from France, kitchen units from Italy (not our choice), watches from Switzerland. Although I can’t help but think that some components - especially electronics - are from China and the far East.

Some things are a little trickier to buy from the UK and Europe. I’ve not yet managed to find UK manufactured mobile phones, mobile phone charging cables, tablets, laptops, low cost electronics (like security cameras, sensors, and screens), and low cost bits and pieces. Men’s pants for example, UK manufactured pants are a bu99er to find. As are UK manufactured private jets.

Please do share where you manage to find 100% UK manufactured small electronics, cables, inexpensive clothing, and general low cost bits and pieces, as I’m sure many of us would love to support local manufacturing. Better still affordable 100% UK manufactured, because in my experience buying local is often much more expensive than buying from further afield, and that’s a luxury that too few can justify.

The answer to the carbon footprint issue is to simply consume less. Obvious no? Make do without that latest Chinese made i-phone, ring doorbell. low cost electronics etc etc.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The answer to the carbon footprint issue is to simply consume less. Obvious no? Make do without that latest Chinese made i-phone, ring doorbell. low cost electronics etc etc.

You still haven’t answered my question about how you concluded that I think carbon footprint is of no importance. Nevermind.

 

[markjay]

The answer to the carbon footprint issue is to simply consume less. Obvious no? Make do without that latest Chinese made i-phone, ring doorbell. low cost electronics etc etc.

Good luck with that...

The British public didn't appreciate May's austerity, either.

 

[ChipChop]

You still haven’t answered my question about how you concluded that I think carbon footprint is of no importance. Nevermind.

Nevermind indeed. I replied inquisitively, posing a question, so did not conclude anything.

"A products carbon footprint is of no importance in your opinion? "

 

[Will]

Bosch is a massive group of course. They have manufacturing sites in the UK (IIRC that's where their garden tools are made), and I think in North America as well. I'm sure stuff will be made in other countries too though, including China.

From memory, my Bosch cordless drill was made in Hungary.

No doubt many of these products will be assembled/packaged in many locations globally (perhaps strategically to suit the markets where they are sold), but I would imagine there’s a very good chance they will have Chinese components or materials used in the manufacturing process

The point is, does it really matter where they are made so long as they are designed and tested to be fit for the purpose intended?

Ironically people often place misguided trust in a brand or where they perceive things are made. Note some of the German/European sounding pattern part brands sold by many of the aftermarket automotive parts suppliers.

I had a Bosch crankshaft position sensor fail on my 911 a few years back. Original one was made in Germany, replacement one made by Bosch this time was made in Romania IIRC. What’s the issue? (Not directed at those I quoted above!) - the original part didn’t seem to be of some superior quality anyway (it failed!)

I’m just getting the feeling that there’s a sense of distrust in non-Western European suppliers that only seems to be an issue when it’s raised in the sense of EV and solar/battery tech. But is conveniently forgotten about in the main.

It’s all a bit silly really when we live in a Global world. It’s not going to go back to the old days of the past and I think some people need to accept that and move on

iPhones are Ring doorbells are everyday items for the world. If there were British made alternatives that were better options people would be buying them (and not simply because of where they are made!)

Out of interest I do wonder where ChipChop’s phone/tablet/computer is made? I’d put money on it not being made in Britain (using solely British parts and a materials of course) - but I suspect they won’t answer and will somehow have an excuse of how that’s okay, but a Ring doorbell or iPhone is not

 

[ChipChop]

Good luck with that...

The British public didn't appreciate May's austerity, either.

Right to repair legislation is one way to address the never ending flow of disposable Chinese tech.

 

[ChipChop]

Out of interest I do wonder where ChipChop’s phone/tablet/computer is made? I’d put money on it not being made in Britain (using solely British parts and a materials of course) - but I suspect they won’t answer and will somehow have an excuse of how that’s okay, but a Ring doorbell or iPhone is not

You know where they are made. A more pertinent question is how old are my devices. Can they be fixed/ repaired? Do i need the latest i/android phone. laptop or desktop etc. That question would highlight the unsustainability of modern disposable Chinese tech that is out of date the day it is launched. Much like an EV which is just another must have gadget. Hands up EV owners. Are you all just gadget fans with the EV the latest bit of must have tech?

 

[Will]

You know where they are made. A more pertinent question is how old are my devices. Can they be fixed/ repaired? Do i need the latest i/android phone. laptop or desktop etc. That question would highlight the unsustainability of modern disposable Chinese tech that is out of date the day it is launched. Much like an EV which is just another must have gadget for the gadget fan. Hands up EV owners. Are you all gadget fans?

How old are your devices, can they be fixed/repaired?

I’m using an iPhone 13 at the moment.

Many people use their phones for several hours a day, browsing, video calls, phone calls, emails, shopping, social media etc. Usually on/off charge multiple times a day, dropped, used in hot/cold environments, differing levels of humidity, dust etc.

Mine has never had a fault before, and is at least two years old now. I think if I had to replace it I would have had my money’s worth already. No relevence to being out of date really but if I needed a replacement naturally the latest model would have more features etc.

Am I doing something wrong? Is any of that relative to where it is made?

Would a British made phone be better? Would it be less susceptible to becoming obsolete or aged due to the inevitable developments in technology? Is this somehow the fault of China as you seem to continually insinuate?

Now you can explain how the method of propulsion would mean that a vehicle is a gadget or not. On the contrary, ICE powered vehicles will be something of an obscure choice moving forwards - in much the way as we look at older vintage vehicles, steam fairs etc.

 

[190]

An augment can be made that new cars are well on the way to becoming gadgets. Witness the increasing importance now attached to the interior, size of the touch screen and the number of electronic aids compared to the way a car actually drives. The reason is probably that A to B motorists would now be hard put to find a new car that doesn't do A to B adequately so that interiors and toys have become the differentiator. One problem seems to be that gadgets and electronic aids are manufacturer/regulatory driven rather than customer driven. I've lost count of the number of road tests I've read that reported things such as a lack of physical buttons and lane assist as over intrusive and a pain in ar$e not least because they are not always easy to turn off. Why buy a new car if you have turn off some features you paid for before it's fit to drive

There is still some but very limited choice with only one or two brands such as Dacia focusing on a back to basics approach with limited gadgets. What you can't seem to have is high quality and simplicity at the same time. That must be one of the factors driving the increased interest in used cars rather than new cars.

Why British drivers no longer want a new car

 

[markjay]

Right to repair legislation is one way to address the never ending flow of disposable Chinese tech.

It's a double edged sword, though. And I am in two minds over this.

One one hand, I think that writing-off a 10 year old car because of a blown head gasket is insane. When I was a lad, I used to do this repair myself. OK, there's more stuff that needs to be dismantled these days for access, but even so, the key issue is the ridiculous cost of labour. And, with every consecutive government increasing minimum wages, holiday allowance, pensions, and improving working conditions in general, alongside an increase in taxation on businesses, the hourly cost of labour is only set to increase further, writing-off younger and younger cars who could otherwise continue to run for years.

On the other hand, the standard of living for workers keeps going up, and inevitably labour is becoming more expensive, but this is a good thing - do we really want to keep car mechanics poor so that our older cars can be repaired on the cheap? And do we really want to give tax breaks to garages?

Then, there are efficiency and safety standards to consider. Modern cars are safer, less harmful to the environment and to the public, and (on average) consume less energy per mile.

Regarding safety, an old-enough car will not have ABS, airbags, or crumble zones. And the newer cars will have automatic braking, curtains side airbags, automated GPS-enabled SOS system, etc etc. Surely, we don't to perpetuate the presence of older, less safe, less efficient cars on our roads?

But... making new cars to replace the older one is a double edged sword as well. Building less new cars is good for reducing CO2 emissions related to manufacturing and transportation of cars. But what about the economy.....? Remember Tony Blair's 2009 scrappage scheme?

There are no simple answers, I am afraid.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Nevermind indeed. I replied inquisitively, posing a question, so did not conclude anything.

"A products carbon footprint is of no importance in your opinion? "

Okey dokey.

You know where they are made. A more pertinent question is how old are my devices. Can they be fixed/ repaired? Do i need the latest i/android phone. laptop or desktop etc. That question would highlight the unsustainability of modern disposable Chinese tech that is out of date the day it is launched. Much like an EV which is just another must have gadget. Hands up EV owners. Are you all just gadget fans with the EV the latest bit of must have tech?

The word Chinese really doesn’t need to be mentioned in that paragraph, so why do you include it? Wherever an item is made, if it’s not recycled at end of use then it’s a waste.

I’m guessing that you don’t know too many EV drivers in the real world. An EV is just a car, like any other ICE car. People use them in exactly the same way as ICE cars. Many even drive both EV and ICE!

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

One problem seems to be that gadgets and electronic aids are manufacturer/regulatory driven rather than customer driven.

Inspired by your comment @190 but not replying to you.

Most changes to cars which have been driven by manufacturers (and their technology partners) and regulation are for the better. At the time they was introduced, advances such as seat belts, ABS, airbags, unleaded petrol, satnav, electric windows were all seen as unnecessary.

With time comes familiarity and most people wouldn’t be without them, but I bet there are still a minority who argues against them (albeit mostly for sport). True we could function without any of them, but would it be necessary to do so, and more importantly would we be wise to?

I remember my Dad saying CD’s were expensive, unnecessary, and were only a passing phase because they would be replaced by something else. He was right on all counts, but if we all waited for the next generation of technology, then there would be insufficient investment to create it.

I also remember him saying that electric windows are to be avoided, because they’re expensive, they break, they’re expensive to repair, and you can’t repair the motor on the drive with a spanner. He was right too, but even so, with time and familiarity he drives cars with electric windows now.

I wonder whether those who warn against the expense and fragility of EVs and their battery packs will be driving EVs in the future when time and familiarity mean that it’s normal. For a large number of people driving an EV is completely normal already.

 

[Will]

An augment can be made that new cars are well on the way to becoming gadgets. Witness the increasing importance now attached to the interior, size of the touch screen and the number of electronic aids compared to the way a car actually drives. The reason is probably that A to B motorists would now be hard put to find a new car that doesn't do A to B adequately so that interiors and toys have become the differentiator. One problem seems to be that gadgets and electronic aids are manufacturer/regulatory driven rather than customer driven. I've lost count of the number of road tests I've read that reported things such as a lack of physical buttons and lane assist as over intrusive and a pain in ar$e not least because they are not always easy to turn off. Why buy a new car if you have turn off some features you paid for before it's fit to drive

There is still some but very limited choice with only one or two brands such as Dacia focusing on a back to basics approach with limited gadgets. What you can't seem to have is high quality and simplicity at the same time. That must be one of the factors driving the increased interest in used cars rather than new cars.

Why British drivers no longer want a new car

I think the article is interesting and you can read/interpret the data in several different ways.

Is it possible that rather than people’s preferences for driving an older car, the buying patterns are related to finances?

I mean, over the years there have been various recessions and world economic situations that affect sales.

Or maybe cars built in the last 10/20 years are generally just more durable than those built previously. I mean, 2004 cars to me seem pretty modern and solid, some have many of the features you come to expect nowadays and I guess people see little reason to upgrade, especially if money is tight.

At one point I’m sure some people were happy with their monochrome display phones with keypads, as they only wanted to make calls and text. Now almost everyone has a smartphone.

People will get used to it in time. Rather than the focus on buttons or touch screens, cars will be (and already are beginning to) driving themselves soon - It’s natural evolution of transport.

 

[ChipChop]

How old are your devices, can they be fixed/repaired?

I’m using an iPhone 13 at the moment.

Many people use their phones for several hours a day, browsing, video calls, phone calls, emails, shopping, social media etc. Usually on/off charge multiple times a day, dropped, used in hot/cold environments, differing levels of humidity, dust etc.

Mine has never had a fault before, and is at least two years old now. I think if I had to replace it I would have had my money’s worth already. No relevence to being out of date really but if I needed a replacement naturally the latest model would have more features etc.

Am I doing something wrong? Is any of that relative to where it is made?

Would a British made phone be better? Would it be less susceptible to becoming obsolete or aged due to the inevitable developments in technology? Is this somehow the fault of China as you seem to continually insinuate?

Now you can explain how the method of propulsion would mean that a vehicle is a gadget or not. On the contrary, ICE powered vehicles will be something of an obscure choice moving forwards - in much the way as we look at older vintage vehicles, steam fairs etc.

My devices are not new for sure. Thankfully i know that obsolescence is largely engineering into PC OS's so am more than happy to remove a windows OS that becomes clunky or unable to be updated and use less resource hungry open source software that will run a-ok on older hardwear.

Latest online challenge i am noticing is Youtube have taken umbridge that i am using an ad blocker (Ublock Origin) so appear to be throttling their streaming content. I imagine that may prompt some people to buy new hardwear thinking their existing pc is too old.

The right to repair should address these sharp practices imo.

 

[ChipChop]

The word Chinese really doesn’t need to be mentioned in that paragraph, so why do you include it? Wherever an item is made, if it’s not recycled at end of use then it’s a waste.

The inference being that i am prejudice against the PRC? Feel free to expand on that if you wish.

 

[Will]

^^It’s something that I’ve picked up on in this thread that you seem very eager to mention it at any given opportunity? More so that any other poster I can recall.

Not sure what that means but it does seem odd as I’ve mentioned several times that so much of the products in use on a daily basis are made there, and it only seems to be an issue in recent terms of tech (EV/battery/solar)

Glossing over the questions asked that seem inconvenient to answer yet seemingly critical of others choices when it comes to this subject

 

[markjay]

...i know that obsolescence is largely engineering into PC OS's so am more than happy to remove a windows OS that becomes clunky or unable to be updated and use less resource hungry open source software that will run a-ok on older hardwear.

As someone who spent most of his working life in IT, I have to disagree. There's no built-in obsolescence in Ms-DOS, Windows, or MacOS. They fall from grace due to normal market forces, like everything else.

People buy new IT equipment all the time, and the new kit is bundled with the latest OS. As old kit is replaced, there are less and less PCs around with the older versions of the OS. It gets to a point where hardware manufacturers and software developers stop making products that are compatible with the older versions of the OS, simply because there are just not enough of them left in circulation to make the development commercially viable.

Owners of older PCs then find themselves running an OS for which won't allow them to replace the old printer with new, or use some new piece of software, or install a modern antivirus, etc. But this obsolescence has nothing to do with the OS' vendor.

In fact, I used to support CNC machines, that had a built-in Windows 3.11 server, for around 20 years after the last version of Windows 3.1.1 was released. These machines were not connected to the LAN or to the outside world, and so there was no issue with viruses or Service Packs etc (there was a DOS gateway to a standalone PC that was opened when needed for dumping scripts from the PC to the CNC machine).

The same applies to many items in our daily lives - when less people have them, it becomes commercially uneconomical to make parts or provide services for them. It's as simple as that.

 

[ChipChop]

^^It’s something that I’ve picked up on in this thread that you seem very eager to mention it at any given opportunity? More so that any other poster I can recall.

Not sure what that means but it does seem odd as I’ve mentioned several times that so much of the products in use on a daily basis are made there, and it only seems to be an issue in recent terms of tech (EV/battery/solar)

Glossing over the questions asked that seem inconvenient to answer yet seemingly critical of others choices when it comes to this subject

This may be news to you but the PRC is governed by a totalitarian regime. Hence there is a lot to criticize if you are a Westerner.

 

[ChipChop]

As someone who spent most of his working life in IT, I have to disagree. There's no built-in obsolescence in Ms-DOS, Windows, or MacOS. They fall from grace due to normal market forces, like everything else.

People buy new IT equipment all the time, and the new kit is bundled with the latest OS. As old kit is replaced, there are less and less PCs around with the older versions of the OS. It gets to a point where hardware manufacturers and software developers stop making products that are compatible with the older versions of the OS, simply because there are just not enough of them left in circulation to make the development commercially viable.

Owners of older PCs then find themselves running an OS for which won't allow them to replace the old printer with new, or use some new piece of software, or install a modern antivirus, etc. But this obsolescence has nothing to do with the OS' vendor.

In fact, I used to support CNC machines, that had a built-in Windows 3.11 server, for around 20 years after the last version of Windows 3.1.1 was released. These machines were not connected to the LAN or to the outside world, and so there was no issue with viruses or Service Packs etc (there was a DOS gateway to a standalone PC that was opened when needed for dumping scripts from the PC to the CNC machine).

The same applies to many items in our daily lives - when less people have them, it becomes commercially uneconomical to make parts or provide services for them. It's as simple as that.

You disagree that every successive Windows OS has become more resource hungry?