The EV fact thread

[Will]

This may be news to you but the PRC is governed by a totalitarian regime. Hence there is a lot to criticize if you are a Westerner.

I didn’t think this was a political thread?

I assume you live in a cave then if you’re boycotting anything exported by this region then?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Latest online challenge i am noticing is Youtube have taken umbridge that i am using an ad blocker (Ublock Origin) so appear to be throttling their streaming content.

It’s not unreasonable though is it? You get to watch more videos than you can imagine at no cost to you, on the basis that you watch an occasional advert.

 

[markjay]

You disagree that every successive Windows OS has become more resource hungry?

I would phrase it differently.

I would say that when a new Windows OS is being developed, it is aimed at making the most out of current hardware capabilities. This also means the older, slower, hardware will struggle to run it.

Perhaps in the same way that an Austin A30 will struggle to keep up with traffic going at 70mph on a modern motorway - we wouldn't say that modern motorways were designed to make older cars obsolete, instead we would say the modern motorways are naturally designed for modern cars, and an inevitable consequence is that older cars may struggle to keep up with traffic.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The inference being that i am prejudice against the PRC? Feel free to expand on that if you wish.

There was no inference of prejudice, simply an observation that the inclusion of the word “Chinese“ was not necessary unless there was an inferred meaning beyond what was written, no?

 

[markjay]

This may be news to you but the PRC is governed by a totalitarian regime. Hence there is a lot to criticize if you are a Westerner.

Do you avoid petrol stations selling oil that comes from Saudi Arabia?

 

[Dryce]

As someone who spent most of his working life in IT, I have to disagree. There's no built-in obsolescence in Ms-DOS, Windows, or MacOS. They fall from grace due to normal market forces, like everything else.

That is changing.

We're finding that obsolescence is being forced by application support and security support. Not our choice.

Part of the problem with operating systems in phones is that you need to run apps to access other services (eg. multi-factor authentication, or ticketing). The phone OS has become a dependency for other services that have nothing to do with telephony. The there are security updates - which may not just be a 'good thing' but may be mandated to use your phone with corporate services.

 

[markjay]

That is changing.

We're finding that obsolescence is being forced by application support and security support. Not our choice.

Part of the problem with operating systems in phones is that you need to run apps to access other services (eg. multi-factor authentication, or ticketing). The phone OS has become a dependency for other services that have nothing to do with telephony. The there are security updates - which may not just be a 'good thing' but may be mandated to use your phone with corporate services.

All correct... buy nothing has changed.

It is simply not commercially viable to keep developing updates and security patches for old version of the operating systems that are rarely in use.

As for mobile phones, people regularly upgrade them, and when they do, they get the latest OS available at the time. This means that the older OS version gradually disappear.

In the same way that pattern parts for the Ford Mondeo will continue to be made by various manufacturers for as long as these cars are still being driven. But try and find someone who manufacturers a new coolant pump for a Mk1 Escort..... Ford didn't make the Mk1 obsolete - the market did.

 

[markjay]

BTW, as the story goes, the ISS had an onboard computer running Windows NT4.

This OS was kept alive by the release of Service Packs, the last of which was SP5, before it became obsolete and replaced by Windows 2000.

However, upgrading the OS on the ISS computer to Windows 2000 was deemed to be risky, and shipping a new computer was deemed to be too expensive.

The solution was to ask Microsoft to continue and support the NT4 OS on the ISS until a permanent solution can be found.

Microsoft then developed Windows NT4 SP6, specifically for the ISS, to extend the life of its computer. SP6 was never made available to the public, because by that time Windows NT4 was no longer officially supported.

The point is that there's no built-in obsolescence in operating systems. They continue to live on, until there's no demand any more.

Just normal market forces at play.

 

[Dryce]

All correct... buy nothing has changed.

It is simply not commercially viable to keep developing updates and security patches for old version of the operating systems that are rarely in use.

No - I disagree.

The two aspects we are seeing change are that large suppliers are becoming more didactic about support periods and updates. And that there are more dependencies

There is a balance of power aspect.

So if you have - say an Adobe subscription - if Adobe say decide to ditch Windows 10 for retail customers then you can't stop paying them - because you're not getting the benefit - but keep using the software un-updated. You have to keep paying the subscription.

This means that incumbent suppliers can dictate obsolescence on their terms.

 

[ChipChop]

It’s not unreasonable though is it? You get to watch more videos than you can imagine at no cost to you, on the basis that you watch an occasional advert.

Throttling is hardly an effective form of communication imo, and as mentioned earlier may lead to some old dear replacing expensive hardwear when they do not need to.

 

[Bellow]

As examples, ITV and Channel 4 streaming no longer work on any OS earlier than W10. That is planned obsolescence - whoever implemented it.

 

[markjay]

No - I disagree.

The two aspects we are seeing change are that large suppliers are becoming more didactic about support periods and updates. And that there are more dependencies

There is a balance of power aspect.

So if you have - say an Adobe subscription - if Adobe say decide to ditch Windows 10 for retail customers then you can't stop paying them - because you're not getting the benefit - but keep using the software un-updated. You have to keep paying the subscription.

This means that incumbent suppliers can dictate obsolescence on their terms.

All subscription-based software products will automatically entitle the user to the latest versions as they are released, and so the question of obsolescence becomes irrelevant.

The user can, alternatively, purchase a 'perpetual license' (either FPP or ESD), instead of a 'Cloud subscription', for a one-off fee, and they can then keep on using (legally) the version that they bought, indefinitely.

(I used to sell software for a living... )

 

[Dryce]

All subscription-based software products will automatically entitle the user to the latest versions as they are released, and so the question of obsolescence becomes irrelevant.

You missed my point about OS obsolescence becays the application subscription dictates it.

The user can, alternatively, purchase a 'perpetual license' (either FPP or ESD), instead of a 'Cloud subscription', for a one-off fee, and they can then keep on using (legally) the version that they bought, indefinitely.

(I used to sell software for a living... )

You cannot buy up to date perpetual licences for Adobe products such as Photoshop or some accounting software.

The world has changed quite brutally in some sectors.

 

[BIGDOG]

I didn’t think this was a political thread?

I assume you live in a cave then if you’re boycotting anything exported by this region then?

There’s a couple of blokes like this on my local FB group, seem scared of their own shadow and refuse to actually type the word China, post Ch na instead.
I’ve concluded that it is some kind of online political weirdness, probably a bit right leaning, they all seem to be anti china/20mph speed limits/cycle paths. Anything deemed a bit ‘lefty’.

Edited to add:

They are frequently banned from such groups.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Throttling is hardly an effective form of communication imo, and as mentioned earlier may lead to some old dear replacing expensive hardwear when they do not need to.

Possible. Definitely possible. But not likely. Definitely not likely that an old dear who has installed an ad blocker would replace an otherwise perfectly functional and performant piece of hardware because YouTube is throttled. More likely to conclude that YouTube is bit slow, no?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

As examples, ITV and Channel 4 streaming no longer work on any OS earlier than W10. That is planned obsolescence - whoever implemented it.

Should the developers of all apps going to increasingly long lengths to protect themselves and their user community for a shrinking minority of users who refuse to update to later and more secure software.

The ITV and Channel 4 apps are free to use, and people can choose to use them or not to use them. If the individual doesn’t have a supported device - or a device at all - then they could choose to watch the programmes on TV.

 

[Dryce]

Should the developers of all apps going to increasingly long lengths to protect themselves and their user community for a shrinking minority of users who refuse to update to later and more secure software.

The ITV and Channel 4 apps are free to use, and people can choose to use them or not to use them. If the individual doesn’t have a supported device - or a device at all - then they could choose to watch the programmes on TV.

This becomes a problem because it creates a false demand for new OS - but the actual innovation levels in the OS are actually very low.

Worse - we end up with incumbent OS ecosystems where there is no competition and barriers to entry for anything new or better are insurmountable.

So email systems, document storage and management systems, photo retouching software, accounting software, databases, whatever are all based on technology developed over a generation ago and we can't evolve beyond them.

We run this cr*p on faster bigger systems that hide how increasingly inefficient the implementations have become..

 

[markjay]

This becomes a problem because it creates a false demand for new OS - but the actual innovation levels in the OS are actually very low.

Worse - we end up with incumbent OS ecosystems where there is no competition and barriers to entry for anything new or better are insurmountable.

So email systems, document storage and management systems, photo retouching software, accounting software, databases, whatever are all based on technology developed over a generation ago and we can't evolve beyond them.

We run this cr*p on faster bigger systems that hide how increasingly inefficient the implementations have become..

I don't think that many people outside of the software development world can appreciate the performance and reliability improvements of new or re-written code. Most of us can only relates to the UI features and therefore regard a lot of what we see as 'bloathware', and not always without justification.

But the transparent transition from 16 bit to 32 bit, then to 64 bit, for example, had massive impact on performance, and while some of it was used to enable the running of heavier and more resource-consuming graphic interfaces, a considerable amount of it is actually enhancing performance.

Regarding the evolution vs innovation debate - its funy to have it on a motoring forum, given that vehicles have been designed using 4 wheels, 5 seats, a steering wheel, 4 brakes, and a 4-cyl internal combustion engine for over 100 years... the development of the motorcar up to the EV era has been as slow and as incremental as it can possibly get.

And, equally, buy a car with anything above the base trim level, and you'll get a bunch of features that you'll never ever use.

A clean slate isn't always a good idea - as the Chrysler Turbine Car or the NSU Ro 80 W@nkel powered car show.

Sometimes progress is made through persistent hard work and small steps over a long time.