The EV fact thread

[SpikyMikey]

"Public backs safety checks...." Just over a 1000 respondents to the survey and 41% said there should be more stringent checks.
Well that's conclusive. Not.
Another click bait non story from the Daily Wail.

 

[markjay]

DPF's remove 99% of particulate matter from exhausts. You could call that a solution to a, mostly diesel, ICE problem....

The unknown factor here is what percentage of older Diesel cars on our roads had their DPF gutted or removed altogether?

DPF isn't a good system, because it's expensive to replace when it fails (which is does, on cars that are used mostly for short journeys), and easily bypassed.

How many old Diesel car had their DPF removed as an alternative to writing-off the car due to the cost of replacement?

 

[ChipChop]

The unknown factor here is what percentage of older Diesel cars on our roads had their DPF gutted or removed altogether?

DPF isn't a good system, because it's expensive to replace when it fails (which is does, on cars that are used mostly for short journeys), and easily bypassed.

How many old Diesel car had their DPF removed as an alternative to writing-off the car due to the cost of replacement?

Exhaust aftertreatment systems are a relatively recent invention so the answer is no older diesel cars are effected by the issue you are highlighting. As for dpf and def exhaust aftertreatment systems not being a good system that is the state of the art. The DPF collects and oxidizes carbon and diesel exhauist fluid is injected to remove NOx. Resulting in near zero emissions as required by the current euro standard.

It is the endless march of the Euro emissions standards that creates these technology requirements. An ongoing process. Next step brake and tyre particulate standards. Read somewhere that the Euro 7 standard will require vehicles to evaluate their own emissions in real time as they are being driven. Rolling laboratories.

 

[Pontoneer]

IMHO, a poor decision to scrap MOT tests for these cars in the first place.

VED exemption is one thing, but an annual inspection on a ramp (or pit…) is sensible. Despite minimal use, a lot of things age and there’s a good chance many of these 40+ year old cars are driving around with perished hoses, rusty bits underneath and what have you. It’s only £1 a week at the maximum MOT test fee anyway.

The option to have vehicles tested has always remained , as has the obligation to maintain vehicles in roadworthy order .

The police still have the power to stop and examine any vehicle they suspect might be defective , and most traffic cops have the ability to sense which vehicles are well maintained classics , and which are being run on a shoestring , possibly with corners being cut .

Furthermore , the exemptions only apply if the keeper applies for historic status , any who suspect that they may find restrictions placed on historic vehicles at a later date , as is already the case in other countries , can just continue to run their car paying VED and being obliged to have it tested .

 

[Pontoneer]

Don’t some of these diesel powered ones have the aux heaters that run off diesel too? They seem to chuck heat out pretty quick!

Some of the aux heaters , such as the Webasto ones , run off kerosene , and have their own tank , I think buses often have these .

 

[Pontoneer]

Yes diesel cars and vans have had auxiliary heaters for decades ... pretty sure this was a factory option on the W124 (and some later models of E Class?).

The nice man who came to make up some remote keys for our C1 had a built-in diesel heater in his mobile workshop (high roof Transit) - very toasty inside

You can also get electric pre heaters for ICE vehicles to aid starting in cold climates and , by pre heating the coolant , not only does the engine start more easily , but the car provides heat straight away .

These were an option on both petrol and diesel vehicles .

 

[Pontoneer]

I guess it was based on accident stats e.g. how often old/vintage cars are actually involved in injury accidents. Same argument applies to trailers & caravans - there has been talk of introducing annual inspections on those for years, but the huge cost of administering this simply can't be justified. A flipped caravan on the M4 or whatever looks spectacular but rarely results in anyone being hurt.

Obviously old cars couldn't have actual MOTs as a Model T Ford (or whatever) won't conform to any of the current safety/emissions/etc. requirements. Some sort of annual inspection might be an idea but there would be a danger of it being very subjective if it had to cater for a 100+ year age range of vehicles.

MOT rules have always taken account of vehicle age , for example requirements for things like seatbelts , exterior mirrors have cut off dates , pre 64 cars can have white front indicators and red rear ones , pre 1960 cars have no set standards for emissions - just a requirement that there shouldn’t be ‘excessive’ visible smoke . Lots of things , like rear fog lamps that were never originally fitted to older cars cannot be tested , nor mandated retrospectively .

 

[Pontoneer]

Naturally older vehicles won’t be tested to the same standards as newer ones - hasn’t that always been the case though?

E.g. for emissions standards, or older cars had no seatbelts in the rear etc.

We’re talking cars from the mid-1980s and older needing an annual inspection - there’s quite a few of those in regular use, not quite so many model-Ts etc (which I’m sure is what the scheme was aimed at originally!)

Yes , the MOT test takes account of the regulations that were in force at the time of manufacture , many cars don’t require any seatbelts at all , similarly things like exterior mirrors were optional extras too .

 

[Pontoneer]

The unknown factor here is what percentage of older Diesel cars on our roads had their DPF gutted or removed altogether?

DPF isn't a good system, because it's expensive to replace when it fails (which is does, on cars that are used mostly for short journeys), and easily bypassed.

How many old Diesel car had their DPF removed as an alternative to writing-off the car due to the cost of replacement?

Older Diesel vehicles won’t have a DPF anyway ; they are a more recent invention .

Things like W123 and earlier won’t have them , but apart from taxis , most earlier cars are petrol .

 

[markjay]

Older Diesel vehicles won’t have a DPF anyway ; they are a more recent invention .

Things like W123 and earlier won’t have them , but apart from taxis , most earlier cars are petrol .

This is true. My point was that DPF isn't a good solution, for the reasons stated in my post. The number of car actually equipped with it is another matter.

 

[ALFAitalia]

The unknown factor here is what percentage of older Diesel cars on our roads had their DPF gutted or removed altogether?

DPF isn't a good system, because it's expensive to replace when it fails (which is does, on cars that are used mostly for short journeys), and easily bypassed.

How many old Diesel car had their DPF removed as an alternative to writing-off the car due to the cost of replacement?

Less and less get through the test now.... the local test centre to me get "mystery shopper" car put on fire the test once or twice a year by the ministry..... so he's really strict on it now....he's not going to lose his licence over it. Even just tapping it will usually tell if it's hollow....and that's a fail regardless of emissions level. Also lots of cars won't pass the "visible smoke" part of the test without a dpf fitted. So slowly it should become a thing of the past...and rightly so.

 

[BTB 500]

You can also get electric pre heaters for ICE vehicles to aid starting in cold climates and , by pre heating the coolant , not only does the engine start more easily , but the car provides heat straight away .

These were an option on both petrol and diesel vehicles .

Yes a work colleague of mine in the 90s had one fitted in his Renault Espace!

My boss at the time was Canadian and electric block heaters were pretty standard where she came from. She said nearly all car parks had outlets that you hooked up to in winter.

ISTR that fire engines were (are?) commonly fitted with them so they can be driven hard straight from the start. Using connectors that detach automatically when the vehicle drives away, IIRC?

 

[BTB 500]

Less and less get through the test now.... the local test centre to me get "mystery shopper" car put on fire the test once or twice a year by the ministry..... so he's really strict on it now....he's not going to lose his licence over it. Even just tapping it will usually tell if it's hollow....and that's a fail regardless of emissions level. Also lots of cars won't pass the "visible smoke" part of the test without a dpf fitted. So slowly it should become a thing of the past...and rightly so.

They are now looking at a measuring a Particulate Number as part of the test

We are therefore committed to implementing more effective testing of particulate emissions from diesel cars to allow for those which have excessive emissions to be identified. Other countries have implemented new ways of testing the tailpipe emissions of diesel vehicles to determine if DPFs are present and working – this is known as particulate number (PN) testing.

And considering NOx measurement (bad news if you've had an 'AdBlue Delete' done)

Whilst our proposals in Part 1 should significantly strengthen the testing of particulate emissions during the MOT, another pollutant of significant concern is NOx. The MOT test currently does not include a direct examination of the performance of NOx control systems on the vehicle and we understand that this can be difficult to fully assess without the engine under load. We would welcome any views or research on methods that could be applied within the MOT test to assess the performance of NOx control systems on both diesel and petrol vehicles.

Changes to the date of the first MOT test and research into other MOT enhancements

www.gov.uk

 

[ChipChop]

Older Diesel vehicles won’t have a DPF anyway ; they are a more recent invention .

Things like W123 and earlier won’t have them , but apart from taxis , most earlier cars are petrol .

Led to believe it is common practice to remove all the exhaust aftertreatment systems from UK HGV's when they are exported at end of life. Makes them saleable in countries where euro emissions standards are not enforced ie. most of the world.

In the e class range DPF's only came in with the w/s211. No idea when NOx reducing ad blue injection was introduced by Mercedes. Any model with a blue efficiency badge on the front wing possibly?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Not Blue Efficency... thats mine with NO Adblue. It the BlueTEC models that have Adblue.

 

[BTB 500]

Led to believe it is common practice to remove all the exhaust aftertreatment systems from UK HGV's when they are exported at end of life. Makes them saleable in countries where euro emissions standards are not enforced ie. most of the world.

In the e class range DPF's only came in with the w/s211. No idea when NOx reducing ad blue injection was introduced by Mercedes. Any model with a blue efficiency badge on the front wing possibly?

EU6 became mandatory for diesels in September 2015, but some cars had AdBlue before then.

DPFs were part of EU5 which was 2009, but again some had them before that. Our 2007 Vito is EU4 but a DPF was fitted as standard.

 

[grober]

Vehicle NOx emissions: The basics - International Council on Clean Transportation

Among the air pollutants gasoline and diesel engines emit are oxides of nitrogen—NO and NO2, generically abbreviated as NOx. Nitrogen oxides have harmful direct effects on human health, and indirect effects through the damage they do to agricultural crops and ecosystems. Vehicle NOx emissions...

theicct.org

Remember the VW CHEATING emissions debacle of a few years back-even the vehicle manufacturers are at it!

 

[markjay]

Mercedes-Benz have championed active safety for many decades....

And they didn't stop their R&D in 1970, either....

Mercedes-Benz were safer cars than most back in the day, but what they invented (ABS, together with Bosch) first became commonplace (Ford Granada/Scorpio), then mandatory (for all new cars sold).

From the overall safety perspective, personally, I'd rather be in any modern car, than in any car (Mercedes or otherwise) equipped with 30 years old active safety systems. Personal preference, backed by both science and common sense.

 

[ChipChop]

From the overall safety perspective, personally, I'd rather be in any modern car, than in any car (Mercedes or otherwise) equipped with 30 years old active safety systems. Personal preference, backed by both science and common sense.

You may want to avoid ever travelling in a BYD Atto 3 EV with the adaptive cruise control on then. A euro NCAP 5 star rated car despite having this issue. The assumption that more tech is always better is not necessarily true. See also Tesla's with no indicator stalks.

BYD Atto 3 given worst Euro NCAP driver-assistance score ever | Auto Express

Euro NCAP says it doesn’t recommend the BYD Atto 3’s adaptive cruise control system, given that it “effectively switches off” after periods of driver inactivity

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You may want to avoid ever travelling in a BYD Atto 3 EV with the adaptive cruise control on then. A euro NCAP 5 star rated car despite having this issue. The assumption that more tech is always better is not necessarily true. See also Tesla's with no indicator stalks.

BYD Atto 3 given worst Euro NCAP driver-assistance score ever | Auto Express

Euro NCAP says it doesn’t recommend the BYD Atto 3’s adaptive cruise control system, given that it “effectively switches off” after periods of driver inactivity

www.autoexpress.co.uk

I bet you’re absolutely gutted as I suspect you had your heart set on a brand new EV made in China, and had intended to make full use of the driver assistance technologies