The EV fact thread

Bobby Dazzler · Monday at 12:51 PM

ChipChop said:
..."the system effectively switches off steering support after a prolonged period of inactivity whilst maintaining speed control" earned the BYD Atto 3 Euro NCAP's worst ever driver assistance score. Appears you would not have marked this car down for the observed driver assistance issue. Low probability appears to be a factor in your reasoning. Unlikely any professional body assessing car safety would consider that point relevant.

I agree it is odd euro NCAP appear to have delayed releasing their findings for 2 years. Possibly related to BYD's small european market presence prior to this year?

I note your comment that you believe that I would not mark the Atto 3 down on driver assistance, but this is not a subjective assessment, it’s objective and tightly defined in the Euro NCAP assessment protocol for safety assist and the UN Regulation No. 79. For what it’s worth I would rate it the same based upon the relevant frameworks.

Probability doesn’t come into the Euro NCAP assessment, but it is fundamental to risk and therefore real world safety. Euro NCAP won’t comment on that, nobody would expect them to. It was me that commented on probability because I am not Euro NCAP and I’m not publishing a report which could come back to bite me at a later date.

Did you get the quote in your post from Euro NCAP? I personally believe that it’s better to refer to Euro NCAP’s actual report. Unfortunately often what is reported by news outlets - and other third-party websites - is subject to interpretation by journalists, authors (or similar). The key summary from Euro NCAPin their report states:

“The BYD ATTO 3 provides modest levels of driver engagement and vehicle assistance. and, specifically, the lack of action which is taken in case of an unresponsive driver, that the car performs poorly. However, it is in the area of safety backup. Overall, the system is Not Recommended for highway assistance.”

For clarity, this is what Euro NCAP define as a an unresponsive driver, but this is defined separately in the assessment protocol rather than in the specifically in the report for Atto 3:

“An unresponsive driver is determined as a driver who either does not return their gaze to the forward road view within 3 seconds of an inattention warning being issued or a driver whose gaze has been away from the forward road view or has been eyes closed for ≥ 6 seconds.”

The Atto 3 is unable (by design) to take full control of the steering to bring the car to a stop in a location which is likely to be safer, for example the hard shoulder. It takes its lead from the car in front, and so if the car determines that this condition has been me then the driver is unresponsive and immediately brings the car to a stop on its current trajectory.

Once it slows down it cannot follow the car in front and so steering control is deactivated. By definition, to bring the car to a stop, speed control must remain active as that’s the system which stops the car. It’s not that the steering switches off and the car carries on at speed like a runaway train as is how some may interpret it.

Euro NCAP use disclaimers in their various reports and this one relates to the use of Adaptive Cruise Control, ie the driver must always be actively engaged in the act of driving, as systems cannot be fully relied upon as they may disengage or not detect (and avoid) other road users or obstacles, the very things that Atto 3 is not recommended for.

“When using Assisted Driving Systems (also known as SAE Level 2 systems), a driver’s responsibilities include monitoring the system’scontrol of speed, braking and steering at all times, strict compliance with traffic rules, and maintaining situational awareness throughout the journey.

Certain situations might negatively influence the system’s performance (e.g. poor weather, faded lane markings, construction zones, exiting
a tunnel), resulting in a sudden interruption of the lateral and/or longitudinal support (system disengagement). Moreover, the system may
fail to detect certain road users such as motorcyclists not directly in front of the vehicle, or stationary objects.

Appropriate fitness to drive is critical for safe travel, even when using Assisted Driving Systems. Visual distraction (e.g. eyes off the road),
impairment (e.g. drowsiness, intoxication) as well as unresponsiveness, poses high risks. It is highly recommended to keep your hands on
the steering wheel at all times to ensure immediate reaction when the system disengages.”

Euro NCAP are not saying that the driver assistance functions in the Atto 3 are dangerous, nor are they saying that the Atto 3 itself is dangerous (far from it in fact as it performed well in Euro NCAP testing, they’re only saying that they are unable to recommend the use of the driver assistance functions in the Atto 3.

They won’t explicitly say this, but they have to state “Not Recommended” as they are seen as the leading source of vehicle safety information, and in the event of a very unlikely scenario manifesting, they do not wish for there to be any ambiguity regarding their liability in the matter..

For the sake reason you’ll be hard pushed to find a system or car recommended by Euro NCAP, they will only state who performs best against the assessment protocols and frameworks that were used at the time of testing. Even the report for the Mercedes with the highest rated driver assistance systems does not state that it’s recommended.

Pontoneer · Monday at 12:54 PM

BTB 500 said:
Yes a work colleague of mine in the 90s had one fitted in his Renault Espace!

My boss at the time was Canadian and electric block heaters were pretty standard where she came from. She said nearly all car parks had outlets that you hooked up to in winter.

ISTR that fire engines were (are?) commonly fitted with them so they can be driven hard straight from the start. Using connectors that detach automatically when the vehicle drives away, IIRC?

We certainly have Marishal chargers in the appliance bays , with connectors , which look like 16A single phase plugs , but without the locking caps , hanging from the ceiling in such a way that they disconnect when the vehicle is driven off , as far as I was aware they were there to maintain the vehicle batteries ( more remote stations can go longer periods without the vehicles being started and there are on board systems which drain the batteries even when parked up ) .

I don’t know if they have block heaters but I will ask next time I’m in the fleet workshops .

BTB 500 · Monday at 1:11 PM

Just reading about the Porsche/Audi battery recall ... sounds very similar to the Jaguar I-PACE one:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62543683/porsche-taycan-battery-short-circuit-recall/

One UK owner has apparently been told by his current insurer that they won't cover the car any more (presumably meaning they won't renew the policy, rather than cancelling it). He also mentions an issue with his house insurance:

clk320x · Monday at 1:31 PM

BTB 500 said:
Just reading about the Porsche/Audi battery recall ... sounds very similar to the Jaguar I-PACE one:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62543683/porsche-taycan-battery-short-circuit-recall/

One UK owner has apparently been told by his current insurer that they won't cover the car any more (presumably meaning they won't renew the policy, rather than cancelling it). He also mentions an issue with his house insurance:

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While the recall affects over 27,000 vehicles, only a small fraction—around 550—are suspected of having a defect in the battery cells that could lead to thermal issues. The issue stems from a manufacturing defect at LG Energy Solution’s facility, and Porsche has already implemented preventive measures, including software updates and charging limitations, to mitigate risks. Affected units will be replaced free of charge.

markjay · Monday at 1:52 PM

190 said:
I don't think they need to worry as by 2030 an EV will be a more attractive proposition than an ICE. I've lost count of the number of articles I've read on battery developments in the pipeline promising greatly improved range and faster charging. If only a few of them come to fruition an EV will no longer be a concern on price or range. If you are a typical 5 year old used car buyer in the market now then while a used EV can be bought cheaply enough already, they tend to have poor range. When I can get a used EV with minimum 200 mile range in the worst conditions of winter driving and some serious hilly terrain and all for the same price as an ICE then I'll take the plunge.

Solid state batteries are only the start, there are plenty more developments in the pipeline that will make an EV even better.

Hyundai to take on Honda, CATL in race for all-solid-state battery

Regarding range.... it is in fact not an issue for a significant proportion of drivers (myself included). We may all talk about how 200-300 miles isn't sufficient for some, but this range is from the largest batteries, while there are plenty of EVs sold with smaller batteries and much lower range - clearly, even the 'low' 200-300 miles range isn't a necessity for many. And, the model variants with the smaller batteries are also cheaper.

Of course, for ICE cars to completely disappear from our roads, the range issue will need to be resolved. But the range issue in itself does not explain the current low uptake of EVs.

My guess is that the main factors at play here are (a) cost, (b) local access to chargers, and (c) psychological elements including distrust of new tech and the incessant negative coverage in the media - journos seem to gloat whenever a bug is reported to have been found in an EV.

ALFAitalia · Monday at 2:05 PM

A small but significant number might be like me......no real problem with EVs....I could easily use one and probably charge away from home no more than five of six times a years if that.....and even that would usually be at the destination so very little need to charge expensively on the way. I've got a drive to charge cars, meter at the front of the house in the bin store for simple charger point fitment, don't do loads of miles in my cars anymore....probably the ideal EV target owner. If I'm honest an EV could easily fit into my lifestyle with no bother or changes.......BUT........I'm a petrol head through and through....I love engines and the way they work....almost living breathing things. To replace that with domestic appliance/electric motor on wheels.....well I don't think I could do that....not until I'm forced too (hopefully never!)......its just not what cars and driving are about for me.
On the other extreme.....my dad.....well as long as it gets him from A to B, is cheap to by run and is reliable he really could not care less what powers his car.....its a tool to do a job....nothing more or less. A car person he is not....which is strange because he love machines and fixing them......66 years on the same farm have necessitated that!!....and he used to do all his own car work and taught me about fixing cars.....but not interested now!

ChipChop · Monday at 2:43 PM

markjay said:
What's the solution, though - keep on polluting the air we breathe?

The solution is certainly not going to be arrived at by persuing ever changing euro emissions regulations. All they do is promote consumption.

Bobby Dazzler said:
I note your comment that you believe that I would not mark the Atto 3 down on driver assistance, but this is not a subjective assessment, it’s objective and tightly defined in the Euro NCAP assessment protocol for safety assist and the UN Regulation No. 79. For what it’s worth I would rate it the same based upon the relevant frameworks.

Probability doesn’t come into the Euro NCAP assessment, but it is fundamental to risk and therefore real world safety. Euro NCAP won’t comment on that, nobody would expect them to. It was me that commented on probability because I am not Euro NCAP and I’m not publishing a report which could come back to bite me at a later date.

Did you get the quote in your post from Euro NCAP? I personally believe that it’s better to refer to Euro NCAP’s actual report. Unfortunately often what is reported by news outlets - and other third-party websites - is subject to interpretation by journalists, authors (or similar). The key summary from Euro NCAPin their report states:

“The BYD ATTO 3 provides modest levels of driver engagement and vehicle assistance. and, specifically, the lack of action which is taken in case of an unresponsive driver, that the car performs poorly. However, it is in the area of safety backup. Overall, the system is Not Recommended for highway assistance.”

For clarity, this is what Euro NCAP define as a an unresponsive driver, but this is defined separately in the assessment protocol rather than in the specifically in the report for Atto 3:

“An unresponsive driver is determined as a driver who either does not return their gaze to the forward road view within 3 seconds of an inattention warning being issued or a driver whose gaze has been away from the forward road view or has been eyes closed for ≥ 6 seconds.”

The Atto 3 is unable (by design) to take full control of the steering to bring the car to a stop in a location which is likely to be safer, for example the hard shoulder. It takes its lead from the car in front, and so if the car determines that this condition has been me then the driver is unresponsive and immediately brings the car to a stop on its current trajectory.

Once it slows down it cannot follow the car in front and so steering control is deactivated. By definition, to bring the car to a stop, speed control must remain active as that’s the system which stops the car. It’s not that the steering switches off and the car carries on at speed like a runaway train as is how some may interpret it.

Euro NCAP use disclaimers in their various reports and this one relates to the use of Adaptive Cruise Control, ie the driver must always be actively engaged in the act of driving, as systems cannot be fully relied upon as they may disengage or not detect (and avoid) other road users or obstacles, the very things that Atto 3 is not recommended for.

“When using Assisted Driving Systems (also known as SAE Level 2 systems), a driver’s responsibilities include monitoring the system’scontrol of speed, braking and steering at all times, strict compliance with traffic rules, and maintaining situational awareness throughout the journey.

Certain situations might negatively influence the system’s performance (e.g. poor weather, faded lane markings, construction zones, exiting
a tunnel), resulting in a sudden interruption of the lateral and/or longitudinal support (system disengagement). Moreover, the system may
fail to detect certain road users such as motorcyclists not directly in front of the vehicle, or stationary objects.

Appropriate fitness to drive is critical for safe travel, even when using Assisted Driving Systems. Visual distraction (e.g. eyes off the road),
impairment (e.g. drowsiness, intoxication) as well as unresponsiveness, poses high risks. It is highly recommended to keep your hands on
the steering wheel at all times to ensure immediate reaction when the system disengages.”

Euro NCAP are not saying that the driver assistance functions in the Atto 3 are dangerous, nor are they saying that the Atto 3 itself is dangerous (far from it in fact as it performed well in Euro NCAP testing, they’re only saying that they are unable to recommend the use of the driver assistance functions in the Atto 3.

They won’t explicitly say this, but they have to state “Not Recommended” as they are seen as the leading source of vehicle safety information, and in the event of a very unlikely scenario manifesting, they do not wish for there to be any ambiguity regarding their liability in the matter..

For the sake reason you’ll be hard pushed to find a system or car recommended by Euro NCAP, they will only state who performs best against the assessment protocols and frameworks that were used at the time of testing. Even the report for the Mercedes with the highest rated driver assistance systems does not state that it’s recommended.

Yes the quote is from Euro NCAP. See the original Auto express article i referenced.

ChipChop · Monday at 3:10 PM

ALFAitalia said:
There are 194 S models on AT at the moment....most of which don't claim a new battery having been fitted.....and they have sold over 200,000 of them in the UK. I'm not statistician..........but Id say that's hardly a representative sample.

A single keyword search ("replacement") on the Tesla model S's for sale on AT brought back 6 cars (2014-2017) currently for sale with replacement battery packs and/or drive motors stated in the ad. One is moon and back mileage (328k), another is high mileage (156k) but the majority are low/ ballpark average mileage (92k, 145k, 40k, 85k). Feel free to try any keyword you wish though.

They obviously exists in significant numbers on the UK used car market. As the majority of these cars are leased it also seems likely a significant number end up at auction not on AT when they are disposed of. No idea if Tesla publish the number of new/ recon battery packs and drive motors they have warrantied or sold on the UK market.

Dryce · Monday at 3:56 PM

markjay said:
Of course, for ICE cars to completely disappear from our roads, the range issue will need to be resolved. But the range issue in itself does not explain the current low uptake of EVs.

Low uptake is down to product price and attractiveness.

So Hyundai sell nice EVs. But sit in a Ioniq 5 or 6 and it feels cheap. The journalists reviewing the things don't seem to make a big thing about this. Customers in the showroom may take another opinion. So sit in a MB EQC or EQE and it feels rather nicer - but then - price.

VW ID.whatever - cheap. The latest adverts for the ID.5 do it no favours.

If you don't get the tax breaks to make it cheap to own the it isn't chape enough.

I haven't been to a Dacia dealer to look at the Spring. I'm guessing it will feel cheap as well .... but then it at least is actually cheap even for a private buyer.

So I know the usual response is that the used market and depreciation adjust for that. But if there are not that many of the new cars being bought then not so many to sell on as used. There can't be additional uptake via the used market - so the actual numbers are down to the new market.

Along with this I suspect that the general reduction in sales of all new cars hasn't helped. It means that the number of EVs as a total proportion of the whole vehicle population is rising even slower than the disappointing % of sales would suggest. Maybe that will change as the population of older vehicles gets older and customers holding back start changing.

BTB 500 · Monday at 3:57 PM

ChipChop said:
A single keyword search ("replacement") on the Tesla model S's for sale on AT brought back 6 cars (2014-2017) currently for sale with replacement battery packs and/or drive motors stated in the ad. One is moon and back mileage (328k), another is high mileage (156k) but the majority are low/ ballpark average mileage (92k, 145k, 40k, 85k). Feel free to try any keyword you wish though.

They obviously exists in significant numbers on the UK used car market. As the majority of these cars are leased it also seems likely a significant number end up at auction not on AT when they are disposed of. No idea if Tesla publish the number of new/ recon battery packs and drive motors they have warrantied or sold on the UK market.

Looking at this previously I found multiple examples of most Tesla models that had already needed new battery packs at fairly modest mileages. It was mentioned that they sometimes had to be replaced as a precaution after relatively minor accidents (physical trauma being a known trigger for thermal runaway), but that's neither here nor there and presumably explains the generally high insurance groups compared to ICE (what kind of minor shunt in one of those would need a new engine?). We were talking recently about local runaround cars - our petrol Citroen C1 is insurance group 2 (it's a special edition - the model it's based on is group 1). From a quick look at Parkers the Fiat 500e seems to run from group 16 to group 19 depending on the specific model, and the MB B250e looks like group 31. Even the humble Nissan Leaf is group 21-28. How are young drivers going to insure small cars like these when they are the only option available?

Will · Monday at 3:58 PM

ChipChop said:
A single keyword search ("replacement") on the Tesla model S's for sale on AT brought back 6 cars (2014-2017) currently for sale with replacement battery packs and/or drive motors stated in the ad. One is moon and back mileage (328k), another is high mileage (156k) but the majority are low/ ballpark average mileage (92k, 145k, 40k, 85k). Feel free to try any keyword you wish though.

They obviously exists in significant numbers on the UK used car market. As the majority of these cars are leased it also seems likely a significant number end up at auction not on AT when they are disposed of. No idea if Tesla publish the number of new/ recon battery packs and drive motors they have warrantied or sold on the UK market.

Looking at those figures that’s an average of over 140k miles.

In other words, around 20 years worth of use.

That’s more than the average car would do in its lifetime.

And these are relatively early example of EVs too. And I’m sure most haven’t had to have new battery packs? This sort of real world use shapes the future development and improvements, they’re getting better all the time

I don’t see any of that as surprising and the fact that they’ve been worth repairing also says something too. Using your £13k figure quoted for a new battery pack on the ones that needed it (and assuming that they had no warranty) the repair costs would be outweighed by the reduced running costs anyway - especially on cars that have travelled such high mileage.

Always a different way of looking at things, but it seems as though some are always keen to have such a glass half empty view of the world.

Will · Monday at 4:02 PM

BTB 500 said:
Looking at this previously I found multiple examples of most Tesla models that had already needed new battery packs at relatively modest mileages (under 100k). It was mentioned that they sometimes had to be replaced as a precaution after relatively minor accidents (physical trauma being a known trigger for thermal runaway), but that's neither here nor there and presumably explains the generally high insurance groups compared to ICE (what kind of minor shunt in one of those would need a new engine?). We were talking recently about local runaround cars - our petrol Citroen C1 is insurance group 2 (it's a special edition - the model it's based on is group 1). From a quick look at Parkers the Fiat 500e seems to run from group 16 to group 19 depending on the specific model, and the MB B250e looks like group 31. Even the humble Nissan Leaf is group 21-28. How are young drivers going to insure small cars like these when they are the only option available?

I’d take the insurance groups with a pinch of salt tbh. This is not just an EV/ICE thing either.

No idea what insurance group my little B250e is but it was buttons to insure and the road tax (VED) is free.

And I’ve never paid to charge it away from home either

BTB 500 · Monday at 4:05 PM

Will said:
No idea what insurance group my little B250e is but it was buttons to insure and the road tax (VED) is free.

Try insuring it for a 17 year old with no NCD though. Presumably VED isn't free from next year ... it's only £20 on our Citroen.

ChipChop · Monday at 4:11 PM

Will said:
Looking at those figures that’s an average of over 140k miles.

In other words, around 20 years worth of use.

That’s more than the average car would do in its lifetime.

And these are relatively early example of EVs too. And I’m sure most haven’t had to have new battery packs? This sort of real world use shapes the future development and improvements, they’re getting better all the time

I don’t see any of that as surprising and the fact that they’ve been worth repairing also says something too. Using your £13k figure quoted for a new battery pack on the ones that needed it (and assuming that they had no warranty) the repair costs would be outweighed by the reduced runnings costs anyway - especially on cars that have travelled such high mileage.

Always a different way of looking at things, but it seems as though some are always keen to have such a glass half empty view of the world.

Links below to the 6 Tesla model S cars i found with replacement batteries and /or drive motors if you want to look more closely at their descriptions. I did not search for any other model Tesla which may explain why they are all relatively early examples of EV's.