The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

I've no idea how typical the random ICE car they picked for that test (a 290 bhp petrol) would be. I suspect there are ones with bigger tanks/smaller engines that would idle for longer, just as there are probably newer EVs that would be a bit more efficient. Difficult to make any meaningful comparison.

The fundamental is just how much energy there is in a given capacity ICE fuel tank or EV battery.

The ICE will tend to win just on that measurement.

Thereafter the issue is really down to how the energy from the tank or battery is exploited to achieve a given result.

(As an example we have EVs can deliver amazing acceleration - so even if the battery is smaller it can be exploited better for that purpose with the right motors and management setup).

 

[markjay]

Pre-heating is for comfort though, pre-conditioning isn’t even strictly necessary either. I only use cabin pre-heat

My car does have the battery heather, but requires a software update (dealer only, on my model) for it to come-up automatically when navigating to a supercharger, I didn't bother getting the software update yet because I am really not bothered if my car starts charging slowly until the battery warms up, I really don't need the full whacking 220kW as soon as I plug in - it's a not an F1 pit stop

 

[BTB 500]

Pre-heating is for comfort though, pre-conditioning isn’t even strictly necessary either. I only use cabin pre-heat

I understood that if you didn't pre-condition the battery then the car would do it after you set off, reducing range?

 

[markjay]

I understood that if you didn't pre-condition the battery then the car would do it after you set off, reducing range?

(a) Once plugged-in, the EV will use part of the incoming current from the charger to warm-up the battery. But this can take time, especially in cold weather, so charging will be slow until the battery gets warm. Also, using some of the current for the battery heater increases the overall charging time. This process doesn't rob the EV of any range, but it's not ideal if you want to minimise charging time by charging at full speed as soon as the car is plugged-in.

Without the automatic battery preheating, the car will start charging slowly and only reach maximum available charger speed only once it has sufficiently warmed-up the battery.

The automatic battery preheating function is just a software feature, it's a complex algorithm that optimises the process, taking into account many factors including real-time data from the car and route. The idea is to get to the supercharger with the battery already at the optimal temperature for fast charging, thus spending as little time as possible at the charger.

However, this is only significant in cold weather - when the ambient temperature is high, the battery gets warm through normal use and in fact requires cooling during driving and not much heating for ultra-fast charging.


(b) As said, my car has the battery heater but not (yet) the software update to pre-warm the battery when navigating to a super-charger. The way it works now, is that it starts warming the battery when the ambient temperature goes down below -5°C - and this functionality is a tick-box in the EV menu, so I can activate or deactivate this feature. This is to optimise range when driving in cold conditions.

But it's not something that happens routinely, i.e. the battery heather does not operate other than in these particular circumstances.


(c) 'Pre-heating' refers to warming the cabin before the occupants arrive at the car... many ICE cars have this feature as well. It's not related to the battery heather.

 

[Dryce]

, but policies - as misguided as you think they are - and sheer ignorance are two very different things, in my opinion.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to express opinions on this topic given that I live in Scotland (which is apparently another country) and don't own an EV ......

The policies are based .... I would use the term "on dogma" rather than be as brutal as "on sheer ignorance".

As an example - I think you'll find Glasgow will shortly broadcast to the world how successful its LEZ setup has been. And there will be two aspects. One will be a tangible increase in the actual air quality at three locations in the city which were terrible. The other will be an intangible increase in air quality based on some sort of modelling before and some sort of modelling after.

So the reality will be that they have a larger proportion of EV buses passing through the three locations where there is a tangible improvement. This underlying truth will be masked by the story of the wider area that will be based on modelling before and after.

I would assert that the LEZ is a red herring. Problem is that the proponents will then use that story to leverage the LEZ out to a wider area and also enact other policies. Dogma will win.

 

[Dryce]

Not exactly earth-shattering but a common one I see is quoting the cost of a particular journey based only on the kWh used when driving, when the mains power used to pre-heat/condition just before setting off can be significantly more expensive.

Is this not sort of equivalent to the penalty of the warming up phase of an ICE on short journeys and its effect on MPG?

 

[clk320x]

I understood that if you didn't pre-condition the battery then the car would do it after you set off, reducing range?

Only when navigating to a supercharger so you get maximum charge speed. If you drive say 150 miles beforehand the battery is usually sufficiently warm anyway.

If you don’t navigate to a charger it’ll just charge a bit slower for a few minutes as it warms the battery to the optimum temp.

 

[SmartAmg]

I'm definitely in the EV corner, but this did amuse me a tad.
(Pinched of t'other side.)

 

[BTB 500]

I've definitely seen references to routine battery preconditioning in cooler weather before setting off with Tesla cars (as well as pre-heating the interior). Not sure why you'd ever do this if it didn't improve the range?

Ford's online range calculator for their E-Transit certainly shows a bit more range with preconditioning at 10C, and a fair bit more at 0C.

EV Range Calculator: See how far you can go | Ford UK

Use our EV range calculator to see how far you can go on one charge. Change the variables to find out the maximum range for different conditions here.

www.ford.co.uk

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I've definitely seen references to routine battery preconditioning in cooler weather before setting off with Tesla cars (as well as pre-heating the interior). Not sure why you'd ever do this if it didn't improve the range?

Ford's online range calculator for their E-Transit certainly shows a bit more range with preconditioning at 10C, and a fair bit more at 0C.

View attachment 150215

EV Range Calculator: See how far you can go | Ford UK

Use our EV range calculator to see how far you can go on one charge. Change the variables to find out the maximum range for different conditions here.

www.ford.co.uk

Makes sense. If I could prewarm the fluids and catalysts on my ICE car so that hey were optimal before setting off, then I would. Shame it’s not possible.

 

[markjay]

I've definitely seen references to routine battery preconditioning in cooler weather before setting off with Tesla cars (as well as pre-heating the interior). Not sure why you'd ever do this if it didn't improve the range?

Ford's online range calculator for their E-Transit certainly shows a bit more range with preconditioning at 10C, and a fair bit more at 0C.

View attachment 150215

EV Range Calculator: See how far you can go | Ford UK

Use our EV range calculator to see how far you can go on one charge. Change the variables to find out the maximum range for different conditions here.

www.ford.co.uk

Possibly this varies by make and model.

As I said before, on My IONIQ 5, the battery heater only kicks in when the temperature is below -5⁰C, and even this is a feature that you can enable or disable from the car's menu.

In fact, on MY 2021 and 2022 the battery heater was optional, it only became standard from MY 2023.

So it seems that warming the battery is an optional feature, implemented by some manufacturers on some models, and certainly not standard on all EVs.

Not to be confused with cabin pre-heating, which, as said, is common on many new cars, both EVs and ICE.

 

[BTB 500]

Is this not sort of equivalent to the penalty of the warming up phase of an ICE on short journeys and its effect on MPG?

No, because with an ICE it's reflected in the fuel cost for a journey. With an EV charged at home preheating/preconditioning before you leave is an extra charge on your next household electricity bill, which isn't included when stating that a journey cost £1.50 or whatever (based on the kWh used by the car when driving and the cost of putting that back into the battery at a cheap overnight rate). From memory the 45 min preheat/condition on a Tesla Model 3 used something over 2 kWh in cold weather (you are heating up a battery weighing half a tonne or more). This was on a Tesla owner's forum - I'll try and find it again when I get a minute.

 

[BTB 500]

Makes sense. If I could prewarm the fluids and catalysts on my ICE car so that hey were optimal before setting off, then I would. Shame it’s not possible.

You can get mains powered block heaters of course (Webasto etc.) - a colleague of mine had one fitted to his Espace. And diesel powered auxiliary heaters, which were an option on quite a few older MBs (and other makes).

In reality though modern IC engines warm up pretty quickly, and with electric heating built into the HVAC system plus heated seats the interior of an ICE is soon very comfortable.

 

[BTB 500]

From a quick Google Tesla do say that on the Model S pre-heating the battery before leaving is necessary to get maximum range in cold weather. The mains power used to do this won't normally be at a cheap overnight tariff:

 

[markjay]

No, because with an ICE it's reflected in the fuel cost for a journey. With an EV charged at home preheating/preconditioning before you leave is an extra charge on your next household electricity bill, which isn't included when stating that a journey cost £1.50 or whatever (based on the kWh used by the car when driving and the cost of putting that back into the battery at a cheap overnight rate). From memory the 45 min preheat/condition on a Tesla Model 3 used something over 2 kWh in cold weather (you are heating up a battery weighing half a tonne or more). This was on a Tesla owner's forum - I'll try and find it again when I get a minute.

Not quite.... there's no such thing as free energy.

If you pre-heat the cabin before setting off in an ICE car, it will use the car's 12v battery to do that. This means a slight increase in fuel consumption further down the line when the alternator engages to replenish the now partially-discharged 12v battery.

You might argue that the additional fuel consumption is minimal, however the fact remains that using electrical consumers in an ICE car increases fuel consumption due to the increased resistance of the alternator.

Of course, once on the move, an ICE car will use residual engine heat to warm the cabin, but even so the fan will still consume electricity (and fuel).

Again, the additional amount of fuel consumed in these circumstances is probably small, but it's there - you can't pre-heat the cabin in a cold ICE car for free.

 

[markjay]

From a quick Google Tesla do say that on the Model S pre-heating the battery before leaving is necessary to get maximum range in cold weather. The mains power used to do this won't normally be at a cheap overnight tariff:

View attachment 150218

I see - you're not talking of pre-heating the cabin then.

As per my previous post, pre-heating the battery is certainly not the norm, Tesla and Ford may do this on some models, but my IONIQ 5 does not (and, as said, the battery heater was optional anyway). A work colleague had a Model-X and now has a Model-Y and neither did that either.

 

[clk320x]

From a quick Google Tesla do say that on the Model S pre-heating the battery before leaving is necessary to get maximum range in cold weather. The mains power used to do this won't normally be at a cheap overnight tariff:

View attachment 150218

It’s such a marginal increase in range by doing so, the only disadvantage is lack of regen until the battery is warm enough. I only really use the pre-warming of the cabin.

 

[Dryce]

It’s such a marginal increase in range by doing so,

Maybe that's the case in the average UK winter. Particularly in warmer areas of the UK.

Reports appear to suggest it's quite significant in northern US/Canada type winter with lower temperatures.

 

[Will]

I've definitely seen references to routine battery preconditioning in cooler weather before setting off with Tesla cars (as well as pre-heating the interior). Not sure why you'd ever do this if it didn't improve the range?

Ford's online range calculator for their E-Transit certainly shows a bit more range with preconditioning at 10C, and a fair bit more at 0C.

View attachment 150215

EV Range Calculator: See how far you can go | Ford UK

Use our EV range calculator to see how far you can go on one charge. Change the variables to find out the maximum range for different conditions here.

www.ford.co.uk

Interesting

Regardless of how it’s costed i.e. pre-conditioning from a mains supply that may or may not be at a ‘cheap’ rate, looks like it gets about a 15% increase in range when pre-conditioned at freezing point.

I mean, yes in terms of quoted ‘miles per kWh’ that would be relevant, but do people generally also quote the mpg of ICE vehicles differently for summer and winter for example?

I don’t recall reading many manufacturers specs, magazine reviews or even owners quoting mpg figures for say winter and summer.

It’s widely acknowledged though that all vehicles will use more energy (fuel) in extremes of cold though.

On the other hand, realistically how many months of the years in average UK conditions would this pre-conditioning (or pre-heating cabin etc) be necessary. I’m sure I have seen threads on here with people boasting that they don’t use their central heating until late October or something and probably don’t use it much after say end of March - I suspect similar to how often we have to scrape our cars or use heated seats etc

Certainly useful to consider this but probably more of an issue if you live somewhere particularly cold I would guess?

 

[markjay]

....Certainly useful to consider this but probably more of an issue if you live somewhere particularly cold I would guess?

The Norwegians would know:

How did Norway become the world leader in electric car use?

Nine in 10 new cars sold in the country are electric or hybrid, compared to less than half of those sold in the EU. What’s Norway’s secret?

www.euronews.com

"EVs already account for more than 20 per cent of all passenger vehicles in the country, and almost 84 per cent of new vehicles sold. When counting plug-in hybrids, the figure is close to 90 per cent, according to the Norwegian Road Federation (OFV)."