The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

I guess it's just bad luck that the explosion occurred exactly when the firefighters entered the underground car park. My guess is that this was 10 to 15 minutes after the initial crash. If the explosion happens a few minutes earlier, at least one of the two firefighters who died might have been saved.

There were four firefighters inside and three of them got out, but one went back in to try and save his colleague. Those were the two that died but another was critically injured - I'm guessing it would have been reported if he hadn't survived? Very sad.

 

[markjay]

There were four firefighters inside and three of them got out, but one went back in to try and save his colleague. Those were the two that died but another was critically injured - I'm guessing it would have been reported if he hadn't survived? Very sad.

In which case, both firefighters would have survived if the explosion occurred before they arrived and entered the underground car park. But this won't help their families now...

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Whenever someone goes to stamp on the brake and hits the accelerator*, or has some kind of physical seizure**, the damage to people unlucky enough to be in the vicinity can be tragic. In the world of 1000 Nm family cars with instant torque I imagine the tragedies are going to be very unpleasant. That's not anti EV talk, just a grim prediction***. Even the local delivery vans seem to do the 0-20 sprint very quickly indeed...


* and obviously claims there was a fault in the car
** which they never have had before and never do again
*** I will be looking forward to my 1000 Nm family car in a few depreciation-busting years (if I ever move house to one with a drive)

If you buy one with 1000 Nm the battery capacity will mean that the range will be sufficient isn’t to charge when you need to rather than at home.

I had a go in a Lotus Eletre R, which from memory has 905 PS and 1085 Nm, and it’s a great car to drive. A future bargain for your list.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I’ve seen two new Renault 5 EVs in as many days, one in yellow and one in green. Both looked absolutely fantastic.

Even the small battery option has 40 kWh capacity, so plenty of range for most people most of the time, and reasonably priced.

I’ve yet to drive one but if Renault can’t make a good small EV then no manufacturer can, so it must be pretty good.

 

[Will]

They’re going to sell like hot cakes I reckon.

 

[markjay]

I’ve seen two new Renault 5 EVs in as many days, one in yellow and one in green. Both looked absolutely fantastic.

Even the small battery option has 40 kWh capacity, so plenty of range for most people most of the time, and reasonably priced.

I’ve yet to drive one but if Renault can’t make a good small EV then no manufacturer can, so it must be pretty good.

If used as a city car, 40 kWh will get you around 150 miles in winter and 200 miles in summer.

In a 10%-80% charging regime, this means 100 miles in winter and 140 milea in summer. An easy once-a-week charge even if the car is used daily.

But, obviously, 40 kWh won't work very well for the 200-miles-a-day brigade.

 

[BTB 500]

if Renault can’t make a good small EV then no manufacturer can, so it must be pretty good.

Um ... what about the Renault Zoe, which was apparently not so great. Search for @Doodle 's comments about his.

 

[markjay]

Um ... what about the Renault Zoe, which was apparently not so great. Search for @Doodle 's comments about his.

https://www.whatcar.com/renault/zoe/hatchback/used-review/n817/reliability

I'd say thar for Renault... it proved more reliable than expected!

 

[BIGDOG]

Um ... what about the Renault Zoe, which was apparently not so great. Search for @Doodle 's comments about his.

Is it off your list now then?

 

[markjay]

Not related to EVs, but in 1996 ValuJet 592 (DC-9) crashed into the Everglades with loss of all 110 souls on board after oxygen canisters stored in the cargo hold spontaneously combusted.

Lufthansa A380 stops off in Boston after tablet jams in seat

A Munich-bound Lufthansa Airbus A380 was diverted to Boston after departing Los Angeles Airport due to an electronic tablet jammed in a business class seat.

www.aerotime.aero

"A Munich-bound Lufthansa Airbus A380 was diverted to Boston after departing Los Angeles Airport (LAX), due to an electronic tablet jammed in a business class seat.
....
On May 19, 2024, a United Airlines flight from Zurich to Chicago was diverted to Shannon Airport (SNN) in Ireland after a laptop became stuck beneath a business class seat"

Airlines are (rightly) not taking any chances.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Um ... what about the Renault Zoe, which was apparently not so great. Search for @Doodle 's comments about his.

I know a few people who had a Zoe - one of the first mainstream EVs to market back in 2012/3 - and they thought they were great.

One kept theirs for 10 years. That said that’s only a sample of three and perhaps they all got lucky or were easily pleased.

I dare say that the intervening decade or so will mean that the EV specifics will have moved forward quite considerably between Zoe and R5.

 

[BTB 500]

Is it off your list now then?

Looks nice enough if you're in the market for a small EV. We're not though.

 

[BTB 500]

I know a few people who had a Zoe - one of the first mainstream EVs to market back in 2012/3 - and they thought they were great.

One kept there’s for 10 years. That said that’s only a sample of three and perhaps they all got lucky or were easily pleased.

I dare say that the intervening decade or so will mean that the EV specifics will have moved forward quite considerably between Zoe and R5.

The Nissan Leaf pre-dated the Zoe by several years (that came out in 2010, IIRC).

@Doodle wasn't very complimentary about his Zoe, which he had for 4 years I think. But yes I'm sure things will have moved on since then. I just didn't really understand your comment "if Renault can’t make a good small EV then no manufacturer can"

The BMW i3 seems to be the best regarded of the "1st generation" small EVs?

 

[Doodle]

There were 3 main things that soured the Zoe for me.

• 8-10 weeks in the workshop in the first 2 years, and a catastrophic failure on the CEM by the time I'd had enough - every light on the dash possible and no worky. This was compounded by a lack of trained resource - the EV trained engineer was only onsite 2 days a week. I would fully expect that last aspect to be considerably better.
• Renault's battery model was also significantly flawed for any subsequent owners after the first (maybe it still is? I have no idea what they're doing now).
• Crippling depreciation - 60% loss over 3 years which doesn't seem bad, but that was only because Renault and the taxpayer had stumped up half the cash. The real figure based on list (before marketing incentives and Gov.uk's contribution) was >80%. Thankfully RCI took the hit on that one rather than me.

Knowing then what I know now, I'd have paid the extra for an i3 REx.

 

[markjay]

....60% loss over 3 years which doesn't seem bad, but that was only because Renault and the taxpayer had stumped up half the cash. The real figure based on list (before marketing incentives and Gov.uk's contribution) was >80%. Thankfully RCI took the hit on that one rather than me....

That's not how you should look at it.

Depreciation is always based on the actual initial cost, and not on RRP.

In 2001 I bought a 5 months old Vauxhall Omega 2.6 for £14k. List price was £24k. The car didn't lose £10k in 5 months - instead, what actually happened was that all new Omegas were sold at well below List price at the time - and so my car was never purchased at List, and therefore didn't really lose '40% of its value' in under 6 months.

Having said that, losing 60% of value is very poor residuals indeed - cars typically lose in the firsf 3 years betwen 30% in a best-case scenario, to 50% for poorly performing cars.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The Nissan Leaf pre-dated the Zoe by several years (that came out in 2010, IIRC).

You are absolutely right the Leaf pre-dated the Zoe being launched in 2010/11, that’s why I said one of the first mainstream EVs.

The iMIEV pipped even the Leaf to the post being launched in 2009/2011, but even that was well over a century later than the first.

I just didn't really understand your comment "if Renault can’t make a good small EV then no manufacturer can"

Renault have been making some of the best small cars for many years, something of a speciality for French motor manufacturers.

They’ve also been manufacturing small EVs for 13 years now, with multiple small and city car size models already under their belt.

Off the top of my head I can’t think of a car manufacturer known for making good small cars who have produced more small EV models.

The BMW i3 seems to be the best regarded of the "1st generation" small EVs?

Not sure of the relevance, are BMW making another small EV in the mould of the i3, or are were the involved in the R5?

Either way, the i3 is a cracking car, superbly engineered and a great example of something being well ahead of its time. If launched today it would be towards the top of the pile.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That's not how you should look at it.

Depreciation is always based on the actual initial cost, and not on RRP.

In 2001 I bought a 5 months old Vauxhall Omega 2.6 for £14k. List price was £24k. The car didn't lose £10k in 5 months - instead, what actually happened was that all new Omegas were sold at well below List price at the time - and so my car was never purchased at List, and therefore didn't really lose '40% of its value' in under 6 months.

Having said that, losing 60% of value is very poor residuals indeed - cars typically lose in the firsf 3 years betwen 30% in a best-case scenario, to 50% for poorly performing cars.

Relative to list price, our wonderful Omega had depreciated by well over 75% over the course of 2 years and 24 months. @Doodle Zoe was bullet proof in comparison.

Loved that Omega.

 

[Doodle]

That's not how you should look at it.

Depreciation is always based on the actual initial cost, and not on RRP.

In 2001 I bought a 5 months old Vauxhall Omega 2.6 for £14k. List price was £24k. The car didn't lose £10k in 5 months - instead, what actually happened was that all new Omegas were sold at well below List price at the time - and so my car was never purchased at List, and therefore didn't really lose '40% of its value' in under 6 months.

Having said that, losing 60% of value is very poor residuals indeed - cars typically lose in the firsf 3 years betwen 30% in a best-case scenario, to 50% for poorly performing cars.

I agree, it was more highlighting that if you looked beyond the headline figures, the depreciation went from pretty bad to utterly catastrophic.

It becomes more valid when you consider that RCI were also taking offers at end of term below GMFV, so the actual figure for many was somewhere between the 2.

 

[BTB 500]

In the news today

Honda has slashed its plans to invest in electric vehicles (EVs) by 30 per cent, or £15billion, after lowering its expectations for EV sales in the coming years.

The Japanese automotive giant says it now expects around 20 per cent of its car sales to be electric by 2030, rather than 30 percent, amid dwindling demand.

The company has also cut its budget for new EV projects by almost a third to seven trillion yen (£36.2billion) - and will invest more immediately in expanding its range of hybrid vehicles instead.

Honda slashes EV budget in fresh blow for the electric car industry

The Japanese automotive giant says it now expects around 20 per cent of its car sales to be electric by 2030, rather than 30 percent, amid dwindling demand.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

 

[markjay]

In the news today

Honda slashes EV budget in fresh blow for the electric car industry

The Japanese automotive giant says it now expects around 20 per cent of its car sales to be electric by 2030, rather than 30 percent, amid dwindling demand.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

While car manufacturers in China and South Korea adopted pure-EVs wholeheartedly, it is interesting to see that Japanese car manufacturers in general seem unconvinced about pure-EVs,

Toyota is a case in point: they practically invented the Hybrid car, and yet they were last to the pure-EV party.

If you look at Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, and Subaru, none of them seem to be at the forefront of pure-EV tech. Their emphasis seems to be on PHEV Hybrids.