The EV fact thread

[Will]

People who's work is on-the-road refuel at the end of the day (when all the work is done) and start the following day with a full tank. Thing is, people like that's requirements are being totally ignored.
The idea that anyone working-on-the-road has time to down tools to recharge (but yes, I've seen it) in a country with such lamentable productivity is absurd.

How is this any different to plugging in at the end of the day?

Do they live/park overnight next to a petrol/diesel pump?

How does this affect their productivity and why would they have to down tools as a result?

 

[markjay]

To come to that conclusion i assume there must be evidence that pre euro 4 petrol & pre euro 6 diesel vehicle numbers have not decreased since the expanded ULEZ scheme was introduced. Seems unlikely. See current economic climate.

Well clearly the number of journeys made by polluting non-compliant cars didn't decrease sufficiently to have a significant impact on emissions. Perhaps people living in the zone did get rid of their old Diesel cars, but people driving into the zone from other places (e.g. tradesmen and builders driving older Diesel vans and dual-cab pickup trucks) continue driving and just pay the ULEZ charge? I imagine that for tradesmen living outside London, working for customers in London is more lucrative then working locally in (say) Luton or Maidenhead or Maidstone etc.

 

[ToeKnee]

If you’re worried about the possibility in future of (potentially expensive) repairs to an EV - with no warranty in place - could these worries be offset against the savings made in fuel costs?

I mean going by your figure and MJ’s calculation you’d save about £4k PA - potentially £36k in fuel costs over your 9 year period.

And that’s assuming in 360k miles the diesel mondeo doesn’t need any major repairs, and that servicing/repair costs are otherwise equal for both (EVs should be less complicated in some areas servicing wise)

And also that in those 9 years, they don’t bring in more CAZ/ULEZ schemes, or higher VED that could affect your choice of vehicle too.

A lot of the decisions I had to make at the time were "what-if's". Including trying to find a Mondeo sized EV for the same Mondeo price, and having run and maintained diesel taxis for the last twenty years and almost million miles I felt capable of doing most, if not all, of any maintenance in this newer Mondeo whereas I'd be stuck if anything went wrong with the battery/electrics on an ev. Anyway, it seems I'm steering this thread away from the original title, and you all know how much I hate doing that......

 

[markjay]

Oh dear. He’s referring to slow overnight charge points on streetlights, you are not obligated to unplug on these immediately, this is different to DC fast charging stations which often charge you a fee per unit time that you leave your vehicle plugged in after completion. In the case of Tesla superchargers, this is £1 per minute and therefore means that stations are never blocked. PS you are also given a grace time of five minutes to unplug following charge completion & notified multiple times when you are approaching your charge limit/charge is completed.

The super-fast public chargers in London have a parking time limit, usually 1 hour or 2 hours, if you exceed that you risk getting a PCN (even if your car didn't charge to the full yet).

 

[philnewmerc]

I think that what you describe is a simple case of the known vs the unknown.

I.e., there's no particular reason to assume that the EV will develop a fault or that the battery will need replacing under warranty, it's just that the latest breed of EVs have only been on the market for 3-4 years and it's too early to tell what their reliability will look like long-term.

My own view is that a vehicle based on an electric motor and a battery is inherently more reliable than a car equipped with an ICE engine and transmission, however the ICE engine and transmission have been in development for decades so they do have that advantage.

Being in IT, I remember how unreliable were the Seagate 10mb and 20mb HDDs back in the eighties, but after 30 years for manufacturing millions (if not billions) of these complex and delicate electromechanical devices, the industry managed to reach very good reliability and very high MTBF (for the commercial drives anyway).

In comparison, the first SSDs on the market had small capacity, were expensive, and very unreliable.

But 10 years later, SSDs have now overtaken HDDs in reliability. However, HDDs are still outperform SSDs in price-per-gigabyte, mainly due to the fact that the industry has been making them for decades now.

I believe that the same applies to ICE cars, any advantages they currently have are mostly due to the fact that we've been making them for over a century now, and we got the process down to a tee. We're still finding our feet when it comes to EV manufacturing.

Definitely. The modern ice car is tremendously complicated compared to an EV. From pistons, valves, oils, gearbox, unbelievable they're so reliable. In comparison EVs are super-simple. It's only the (v unlikely) sudden and ruinously expensive battery failure that will be a forum talking point in years to come imho.

 

[ChipChop]

Wasn't this all discussed ad nauseam at the time?

Sad IQ's initiative was a greenwashed tax raising exercise that was never going to reduce pollution in London. He had empty buses and trains to subsidise and union votes to buy.

The global EV transition is purely about climate change and CO2 emissions. It's a quarter of a century since Lord Browne of BP highlighted the CO2 issue. Surely it's been discussed "to death" already? If 4.5 billion workers of Asia were climbing into ICE vehicles instead of EV's the globe would be in serious trouble.

While i agree that Sad IQ is a grifter he is but one of many.

The push away from ICE to EV is part of one of the UN's sustainable development goals, namely goal 13. Climate Action. Sadly for western economies persuing this 'climate' goal will have a negative impact on many other of the stated SD goals. Costs versus benefits ignored thanks to climate hysteria.

 

[philnewmerc]

I find that plugging in an EV in the rain gets me about as wet as getting something out of the boot, or getting in/out of the car.

What do you do at the start and end of your journey when it’s raining, or do you only park indoors or undercover?

#ilikeevsreally

If it rains from start to finish of both our journeys, we will both get wet getting into the car and both get wet getting out of the car. But, I won't get wet when I fill up my car, that's all... But, if I was stopping to go to the loo, as all EV drivers seem to have to do very regularly, then I suppose plugging in in the rain is no biggie really, especially if it hides the splash back

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

A lot of the decisions I had to make at the time were "what-if's". Including trying to find a Mondeo sized EV for the same Mondeo price, and having run and maintained diesel taxis for the last twenty years and almost million miles I felt capable of doing most, if not all, of any maintenance in this newer Mondeo whereas I'd be stuck if anything went wrong with the battery/electrics on an ev. Anyway, it seems I'm steering this thread away from the original title, and you all know how much I hate doing that......

As ever, smart bloke.... I'd do exactly the same. MiLaud..... The only thing I'd add is "Phone a Friend." "If" and I do mean "if" you can see people you trust around you doing something, ask how it's going and try to work through their numbers. The taxi business in London is an interesting benchmark but they're operating in a London cost structure.

It's all another variation on establishing EV facts, and getting away from the nonsense of "All EV's catch fire," "ICE cars are so reliable that they're never scrapped before they reach 100k miles because they're faultless," "EV drivetrains are so reliable that nothing ever goes wrong with their wheels, steering, HVAC, infotainment, sunroofs, windscreens, frameless windows, paintwork, trim, panel fit...."

 

[Will]

As ever, smart bloke.... I'd do exactly the same. MiLaud..... The only thing I'd add is "Phone a Friend." "If" and I do mean "if" you can see people you trust around you doing something, ask how it's going and try to work through their numbers. The taxi business in London is an interesting benchmark but they're operating in a London cost structure.

It's all another variation on establishing EV facts, and getting away from the nonsense of "All EV's catch fire," "ICE cars are so reliable that they're never scrapped before they reach 100k miles because they're faultless," "EV drivetrains are so reliable that nothing ever goes wrong with their wheels, steering, HVAC, infotainment, sunroofs, windscreens, frameless windows, paintwork, trim, panel fit...."

I think everyone’s forgotten that all EVs will eventually catch fire…

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

While i agree that Sad IQ is a grifter he is but one of many.

The push away from ICE to EV is part of one of the UN's sustainable development goals, namely goal 13. Climate Action. Sadly for western economies persuing this 'climate' goal will have a negative impact on many other of the stated SD goals. Costs versus benefits ignored thanks to climate hysteria.

View attachment 151627

Obviously, as I said, Sad IQ is specifically doing a tax grab in London. European cities took a different path: they simply banned high polluting vehicles on high pollution days. No tax revenue for the Mayor, just keep out

The UN Programme? Well, do you want 4.5 billion Chinese and Indians chucking CO2 into the atmosphere this century? Factories, diesel trucks, factories, and air travel ?

Check out the Chinese tourists in London. Every one of them created more CO2 flying to the UK than any Brit saves by converting from ICE to EV for a year.

 

[Bellow]

On the same note, my car was down to 50% this morning and so I decided to top it up to 80%. The lamppost with the generic bay in front of my house was taken by a car that wasn't charging. The dedicated EV bay to the right was free but the charger was faulty. The dedicated EV bay on the other side of the road was free and operational so I am currently charging over there. It's right outside my front window , on the other side of the road. Because it's a dedicated EV charging bay, I'll need to move the car within 12 hours of parking it there. I'll probably move it as soon as my app tells me that charging has been completed.

No Sunday afternoon tipple for you then..... trivial for most - a PITA for others though.
Re releasing charging points - it will ultimately be in EV drivers' interests to cooperate. But since when was that a guarantee of cooperation?

 

[markjay]

No Sunday afternoon tipple for you then..... trivial for most - a PITA for others though.
Re releasing charging points - it will ultimately be in EV drivers' interests to cooperate. But since when was that a guarantee of cooperation?

Already moved the car...

 

[Bellow]

There's a public super-fast charger at the end of our road, and there are three free fast chargers at our local Aldi - I often see both black cabs are Ubers charge there. So it seems that people who work-on-the-road do manage to squeeze-in charging into their daily routine. And given that some of these cars are Hybrid, it seems they do so out of choice (saving money).

Not really the same. A sales rep (say) will drive past a taxi driver waiting for their next fare whether driving EV or ICE. The rep won't be stopping.

But either way, people will indeed have to adapt, just as I'm sure they did when we moved from horse drawn carriages to motorcars.

That transition was to convenience. For too many, the transition to EV from ICE is in the opposite direction.

 

[Bellow]

Already moved the car...

Bottoms Up!

 

[markjay]

..That transition was to convenience. For too many, the transition to EV from ICE is in the opposite direction.

I'm guessing that a bale of hay was cheaper than a can of petrol at the time?

 

[Bellow]

How is this any different to plugging in at the end of the day?

I was responding to a post that stated a driver if ICE would be seeking a filling station first thing in the day - nothing to do with overnight recharging.

How does this affect their productivity and why would they have to down tools as a result?

The notion that stopping to refuel (of any type) doesn't eat into what can be achieved during a working day is farcical - but promoted nonetheless. How could it be otherwise? A tradesman sat in a van waiting for it to recharge isn't the office worker on the train performing their work tasks while travelling. One is productive, the either idle. Will I have to make clear which is which? Not an unreasonable question given how few have any comprehension of working on the road where the vehicle is required to be mobile for the duration of the day.

 

[Will]

Not really the same. A sales rep (say) will drive past a taxi driver waiting for their next fare whether driving EV or ICE. The rep won't be stopping.

Won’t be stopping all day?

What are they selling? And how!

Surely most reps will sleep at night and I expect if they were doing that much driving they could choose an EV with extended range, would make sense too with the potential fuel bill too!

 

[Bellow]

I'm guessing that a bale of hay was cheaper than a can of petrol at the time?

Those who could afford cars wouldn't have been overly concerned with the cost. Saved on having to stable the horses overnight...

 

[markjay]

I was responding to a post that stated a driver if ICE would be seeking a filling station first thing in the day - nothing to do with overnight recharging.

The notion that stopping to refuel (of any type) doesn't eat into what can be achieved during a working day is farcical - but promoted nonetheless. How could it be otherwise? A tradesman sat in a van waiting for it to recharge isn't the office worker on the train performing their work tasks while travelling. One is productive, the either idle. Will I have to make clear which is which? Not an unreasonable question given how few have any comprehension of working on the road where the vehicle is required to be mobile for the duration of the day.

Tradesmen don't usually drive hundreds of miles a day. They wouldn't typically need to recharge while on the job.

The only people I can think of that drive non-stops all day long are taxis, couriers, distribution and haulage companies.

Even sales reps need to stop when they get to their customers - potentially they can leave the car on a public charger nearby while meeting with the customer.

 

[Will]

I was responding to a post that stated a driver if ICE would be seeking a filling station first thing in the day - nothing to do with overnight recharging.

The notion that stopping to refuel (of any type) doesn't eat into what can be achieved during a working day is farcical - but promoted nonetheless. How could it be otherwise? A tradesman sat in a van waiting for it to recharge isn't the office worker on the train performing their work tasks while travelling. One is productive, the either idle. Will I have to make clear which is which? Not an unreasonable question given how few have any comprehension of working on the road where the vehicle is required to be mobile for the duration of the day.

So to counter the convenience of being able to start the day with a full or healthy amount of charge each ICE driver will now spend additional time stopping to top up with fuel each and every day? Seems an odd way of digging your head in the sand.

Sure, some van drivers will find that EVs may not suit their individual working arrangements just yet, that does not mean they aren’t suitable for many, does or it?

Did you read the posts from the forum member on here who has run a fleet of vans for several years through his place of work, and they’re going EV again. Why do you think they’re making that choice after having trialled them for an extended period?