The EV fact thread

[markjay]

You don't 100% know that. There may be alternative combustible fuels that are CO2 neutral. There already are - but they are being ignored. It is wanton stupidity to eliminate them in favour of a technology that has numerous drawbacks and, as things stand, is unaffordable without subsidisation (which is poised to release to market a slew of vehicles that the people who they are intended for will eschew - for a variety of reasons).
When, in the history of the world, when faced with a crisis, was narrowing down the available options the solution? Act in haste (as we are), repent at leisure.

I think the issue isn't emissions as such - it's the complexity of making ICE and automatic transmissions, plus the high maintenance cost. China will skip step this altogether and go straight into mass-producing simplified vehicles equipped with electric motors - much simpler design, little to no maintenance, and above all this is something that the Chinese are much more comfortable with - making electric stuff instead of engaging in highly-skilled metalworks. The only reason we make cheap ICE cars today is that we have been making them for over a hundred years, and the majority of the R&D cost has long been repaid and the patents have long expired, but this temporary advantage is diminishing by the day.

 

[markjay]

Compelling problem would be selling an item that seemingly nobody wants
Quite a number of years in the trade and known traders to me won’t touch them with a barge pole.
As always, I can only speak as I find.

Understood, I was referring to comments made by others that they won't buy an EV at current because there's little availability of second hand EVs, and that they are unaffordable.

I don't disagree with your point, I am just saying that these arguments can't all be true at the same time.

 

[190]

ICE cars and bikes will be around in small numbers as long as a suitable fuel is available and they are still legal. In 40 years time when EV's are ubiquitous there will still be a thriving ICE Classic scene just as there is today. Imagine the excitement of a real running internal combustion engine to those who have never run before. It will be like running a steam engine is now. Classic vehicles survive because they are appreciated as being different in character and I don't see that changing. The caveat of still being legal will obviously apply but they have yet to ban horses or steam power so far and steam power must be many times worse than ICE in terms of pollution.

 

[W1ghty]

Pretty simple really, nobody can either afford or wants to buy a second hand EV, at any price.

I just wonder what happens to an EV resale value at 7-8 years or just before the battery warranty runs out ?

 

[ALFAitalia]

There already are - but they are being ignored.

Which ones are they then?....cus everyone I've heard of uses MASSIVE amount of electricity to make.....completely defeating the point unless we ever get to the point of having more renewable electricity that we could ever use.... And then you burn it in an ICE car at 30% max efficiency..and even hydrogen puts out Nox through the pipe, one of the main things they dont want in city centre ULEZ zones.......so man made fuels wont ever burn 100% clean. Put that same electricity directly in an EV car and its over 90% effiecent,......so way less carbon.

 

[Bellow]

I think the issue isn't emissions as such - it's the complexity of making ICE and automatic transmissions, plus the high maintenance cost.

Much of the above is due to trying to reduce CO2 emissions while using fossil fuels.

China will skip step this altogether and go straight into mass-producing simplified vehicles equipped with electric motors - much simpler design, little to no maintenance,

Simple now - as the Model T was at the conception of motoring for the masses. But only from a mechanical perspective, The electronics are the weak link in automotive systems now. And, all the major transmission manufacturers have or are, developing multi-ratio transmissions for EVs. Electric motors in EVs are not DC shunt motors with max torque at zero rpm. They have a torque curve akin to ICE and further developments may lead to their transmissions going the way of ICE.

and above all this is something that the Chinese are much more comfortable with - making electric stuff instead of engaging in highly-skilled metalworks.

Is this factual? Where is the evidence that China cannot produce engines or transmissions? Just because they haven't doesn't mean they can't. The sheer amount of vehicle parts manufactured in China as replacement parts suggests they can make whatever is asked of them.

The only reason we make cheap ICE cars today is

They are in demand.

that we have been making them for over a hundred years, and the majority of the R&D cost has long been repaid and the patents have long expired, but this temporary advantage is diminishing by the day.

Not so. R&D would be continuing (there are plenty un-tapped ICE possibilities) were it not for the mandated removal of ICE from the market. It is EV R&D that has swallowed cash - which is now added to the cost of EVs and priced them out of a market such that they are only competitive when heavily subsidised. And said subsidies are far from progressive in nature.

 

[davymead]

I just wonder what happens to an EV resale value at 7-8 years or just before the battery warranty runs out ?

The laws of supply and demand will rule as they always do I guess, whatever the age of the vehicle.

 

[Bellow]

Which ones are they then?....cus everyone I've heard of uses MASSIVE amount of electricity to make...

..completely defeating the point unless we ever get to the point of having more renewable electricity that we could ever use....

You keep saying that. Where is the evidence that bio-fuels (grown in fields under the sun - mankind's first and best solar capture) are such?

And then you burn it in an ICE car at 30% max efficiency.

There is still scope for improving thermal efficiency - moot point, as bio-fuels are CO2 neutral so not the same necessity to minimise consumption. And, ICE in that scenario can be less CO2 intensive to manufacture. Further, sourcing the materials for such engines requires less exotic materials, less shipping of raw materials around the globe and, reduces our dependency on other countries. Neglect that point at your peril but you can be sure others will exploit it.

.and even hydrogen puts out Nox through the pipe, one of the main things they dont want in city centre ULEZ zones.......so man made fuels wont ever burn 100% clean.

Now you are citing inner city clean air when the reason we are on this path is to reduce CO2 emissions ay a global level. And suggesting hydrogen has a place in car propulsion - it hasn't. There is in any case ICE capable of zero (engine out) NOx.

Put that same electricity directly in an EV car and its over 90% effiecent,......so way less carbon.

With a 15% loss in recharging, how can an EV be 90% efficient. The infrastructure (including banks of buffering batteries) has to be included also. Without EVs they wouldn't exist so a CO2 cost that would not otherwise have existed.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Proper EV!

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and this was his last ever film.........also EV. Notice gear changes.

A fantastic talent gone way to soon.

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[Bobby Dazzler]

Hertz adverts started to appear because of comments in this thread regarding them off-loading EVs!

 

[markjay]

Hertz adverts started to appear because of comments in this thread regarding them off-loading EVs!

Personally, I think that any car rental company that bows to pressure and takes-in EVs, are essentially prostituting themselves, no less.

As for the people who get EVs for the BIK tax benefits, well that's borderline cheating, a bit like those sham marriages with an Internet bride from East Europe.

Instead of an EV, many people are attracted to one of those very many popular cars that are dating well, take the Escort estate for instance - cars with boots always managed to whip up interest.

 

[Noitz]

I doubt there are many months when Hertz and SIXT are not off-loading very large numbers of cars. It’s a fundamental part of their operating model.

That might be, but you're avoiding the uncomfortable fact as to why they are offloading EVs en mass. The truth is that nobody wants to hire them and they cost too much to run and maintain, not to mention crash damage. The slightest bump and they're written off.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That might be, but you're avoiding the uncomfortable fact as to why they are offloading EVs en mass. The truth is that nobody wants to hire them and they cost too much to run and maintain, not to mention crash damage. The slightest bump and they're written off.

I’m not sure it’s uncomfortable. They’re actively managing their fleet, which is what most people - and especially their shareholders - would expect them to do.

I dare say that there will be growing number of BYD EVs (or similar low cost alternative EVs ) appearing in their place on the fleet in the not too distant future.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I’m not sure it’s uncomfortable. They’re actively managing their fleet, which is what most people - and especially their shareholders - would expect them to do.

I dare say that there will be growing number of BYD EVs (or similar low cost alternative EVs ) appearing in their place on the fleet in the not too distant future.

I’m, Good Lord, are you suggesting that a car rental company is selling a third of its cars that it bought at a large bulk discount from a particular manufacturer after twelve months usage, because it’s been offered new cars from other manufacturers at a discount too ?

Gosh !! Has Ford been told? Have Kia and Hyundai been warned of this chicanery?

(And Hertz would have taken capital allowance tax reliefs on those original car purchases too.)

What cheeky devils these car rental companies are !

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[markjay]

In short, the question is not 'what cars do rental companies sell after one year' (hint: the answer is "all of them"), but what cars do rental companies buy in the first place? We'll, one way of finding out is by looking at the cars they sell after one year................

 

[markjay]

Hertz adverts started to appear because of comments in this thread regarding them off-loading EVs!

Anything interesting popped up yet?

 

[Mactech]

I was of the understanding that rental companies make money by buying (at a huge discount) and selling cars.
Any monies actually earned from rentals just went to cover their operating costs What's changed?

 

[markjay]

Do you own one of the fastest selling used cars of 2023?

If you've ever attempted to sell a second-hand car, you will be well aware that it can sometimes be an arduous affair. But f the vehicle in question is one of these 10 motors.

mol.im

Only 2 EVs made it to the top 10....

 

[Will]

…plus four hybrids.

Oh well, I’m sure there will be some explanation or the other to the contrary any minute now

 

[Noitz]

Hybrid is the practical and sensible way forward...for now.