Thought provoking Driving Thread

[Ade B]

For that to happen the deformation of the car and bike would have to be elastic, which they are not.
If the car was stationary and the bike ran into it, the bike could only continue forwards or stop at the crash point. It may make the car move away due to kinetic energy as whichever object has the greater kinetic energy will control the movement of the other object.

Video example, note how the bike front wheel locks on impact and the car moves away.
This gives the impression of the bike moving backwards.

another example.

Both the video examples are bikes of some heft - in fact I don't believe they get heavier than a Goldwing.. The bike in question was a Buell, which despite being based on Harley mechanicals, will weigh a lot less. Whilst Buell make some big claims for their machinery, defying the laws of physics aren't one..

Ade

 

[Ade B]

So it makes more sense if the bike was going very slow or was stopped and the car drifting at speed towards it.

Unless anyone knows more, there is not enough information given for a fair assesment to be given. A one sided story and some newspaper quotes is hardly enough evidence to form a constructive picture of the actual events prior to and during the accident. Not that such omissions restrict comment for or against the punishment levied.

Lots of pats on the back for someone who has ruined a man and his families lives because he wrote a blog on the internet, says something about todays society.

I guess without the biker's side being put forward, it is inevitable.

The message I got from the posts were don't drive like a **** because of the implications which is fair enough.

Ade

 

[Sp!ke]

So it makes more sense if the bike was going very slow or was stopped and the car drifting at speed towards it.

Thats the only way I can understand that the bike could have been pushed 60 ft backwards.

Couple that with ten pence shorts' 50m skid marks and it does sound an awful lot like he was either deliberately drifting the bend....or he went into the bend at over 100mph, lost it and got it down to about 60mph before impact.

A far cry from his own rather vague version of events.

 

[Ade B]

Thats the only way I can understand that the bike could have been pushed 60 ft backwards.

Couple that with ten pence shorts' 50m skid marks and it does sound an awful lot like he was either deliberately drifting the bend....or he went into the bend at over 100mph, lost it and got it down to about 60mph before impact.

A far cry from his own rather vague version of events.

It would certainly explain why the bike was unable to stop/take avoiding action..


Ade

 

[st4]

Lots of pats on the back for someone who has ruined a man and his families lives because he wrote a blog on the internet, says something about todays society.

What part of "it was an accident" don't you understand? He didn't mean to hurt or injure anyone.

Can you truthfully say you've never once entered a corner in a car a bit fast, strayed over the speed limit, done an overtake and thought "crikey that was a bit dicey" etc. It was an accident, and a momentry lapse of reason gone wrong. Doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you've made a mistake. We all make them.

If you want my honest opinion his only punishment should have been a points based one and a fine/community service. It was a motoring offence, not one of deliberate malice. There are people who set out to do worse that get lesser punishments than 10p

His actions had dreadful consequences, but as an isolated set of actions they weren't ones of a dreadful nature. You'll find the real test of an individual is not what they do, but how the deal with what they did wrong. In this respect I feel, along with numerous others, that 10p is dealing with what he did wrong admirably and trying to point out to others the folly of his ways so the same doesn't happen again.

 

[oldcro]

What part of "it was an accident" don't you understand? He didn't mean to hurt or injure anyone.

Can you truthfully say you've never once entered a corner in a car a bit fast, strayed over the speed limit, done an overtake and thought "crikey that was a bit dicey" etc. It was an accident, and a momentry lapse of reason gone wrong. Doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you've made a mistake. We all make them.

If you want my honest opinion his only punishment should have been a points based one and a fine/community service. It was a motoring offence, not one of deliberate malice. There are people who set out to do worse that get lesser punishments than 10p

His actions had dreadful consequences, but as an isolated set of actions they weren't ones of a dreadful nature. You'll find the real test of an individual is not what they do, but how the deal with what they did wrong. In this respect I feel, along with numerous others, that 10p is dealing with what he did wrong admirably and trying to point out to others the folly of his ways so the same doesn't happen again.

It was not an accident as you say, it was caused by the drivers deliberate excessive speed (check the definition of "accident'). That is why he was sent to prison. You are entitled to your opinion ***, and I respect your right to express it but repeatedly stating it will never change my own opinion of the events as described.

By the way, very few road incidents are accidents in the true sense of the word.

 

[st4]

It was not an accident as you say, it was caused by the drivers deliberate excessive speed (check the definition of "accident'). That is why he was sent to prison. You are entitled to your opinion ***, and I respect your right to express it but repeatedly stating it will never change my own opinion of the events as described.

By the way, very few road incidents are accidents in the true sense of the word.

So the "crime" is the bit IMHO highlighted in bold in otherwords.

I thought the number one cause of accidents was lack of attention/distractions.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to you're opinion - my post was to try and clarify the logic of my posts, and those you've seen on the pistonheads forum. One day we'll find a topic we both agree on

 

[Sp!ke]

The thing is though *** is that the poster appears to be telling half truths about what actually happened and certainly comes across to me to be seeking sympathy and forgiveness from the masses with his sorry tale.

..and he seems to be succeeding.

If he was genuinely holding up his hands then why is he being so economical with the truth regarding his actions?

If ten pence short was busy fundraising to get medical and financial support to the poor victim then yes, he would be putting his money where his mouth is.. but it appears not to be the case..at least its not mentioned anywhere (which you would if trying to raise money).

 

[Dieselman]

If he was genuinely holding up his hands then why is he being so economical with the truth regarding his actions?

Because he actually tried to get away with it at first, then tried to have the charge reduced to Careless Driving.
He pleaded guilty when he knew he couldn't get away with it and is reliant on there maybe not being quite damning enough evidence for a longer custodial sentence. He is still under that sentence and if new information came to light it could be reviewed.

As well as his pride being at stake, it would now be difficult to admit that he knew he was being totally reckless.

I think this is why he is at pains to stress that the bike rider really had no chance of avoiding a crash and was 100% not at fault.

Of course it could be that people here know better than he does..

 

[Sp!ke]

Yes, I suppose I see what you are saying but he was convicted of dangerous driving wasn't he, despite pleading not guilty. Is a not guilty plea the actions of a remorseful person? I struggle to come to terms with that idea.

If we assume he's not telling the truth still in case his sentence gets increased, then he knows that he hasn't yet paid the correct penalty for this crime.

...And people still praise and sympathise with this chap?

 

[Dieselman]

He did eventually plead guilty at Crown Court, as that gives access to a lighter sentence.

He knows he drove badly and is genuinely regretful of the events, but doesn't want to admit that he was completely in the wrong and should have done something about his driving in advance of the crash.

We've probably all been there, I have. The issue is whether one can accept we are in the wrong and the appropriate punishment. Fortunately I only had to contend with a C-D charge, but I was wrong and pleaded accordingly even though it was just an error and the consequences were minor, though could have resulted in a proper head on smash.
That days events made me a better driver.

 

[stevesey]

Yes, I suppose I see what you are saying but he was convicted of dangerous driving wasn't he, despite pleading not guilty. Is a not guilty plea the actions of a remorseful person? I struggle to come to terms with that idea.

If we assume he's not telling the truth still in case his sentence gets increased, then he knows that he hasn't yet paid the correct penalty for this crime.

...And people still praise and sympathise with this chap?

He did plead guilty to dangerous driving (despite some reservations about the some of the evidence offered). And (with hindsight) he does admit he was driving dangerously.

Sympathy - no, and neither is he asking for it. Praise, certainly not for his actions prior to the incident, afterwards? Well praise is the wrong word, but certainly an acknowedgement that he has not tried to deny his responsibility.

His estimate that the car was nearly stationary at the point of impact may be generous, but how good would any of us be in judging our speed in that situation.

 

[Sp!ke]

Fair points Stevesy. maybe praise is true strong a word - forgiveness perhaps.

Heres an extract to ponder over

For about 50 metres down the direction I'd come from, were the tell tale black lines of a skidding car. These were only interrupted by gouge marks on the road surface where car had met bike. In the middle of this lay the biker, motionless, unconscious, a mess.

How far past the point of impact were the skidmarks? 25 yards - maybe more (if the biker was in the middle of the skidmarks)?

Yet ten pence short maintains he was hardly moving on impact. He's *still* in denial of his level of responsibility.

 

[stats007]

To be honest those of you that are questioning who's at fault are completely missing the point - have you even read the entire post?

Nothing could be proven regarding the technicalities of the accident so why are you even pretending to know more than the people involved with it?

The thread is about opening peoples eyes to the consequences of what most people would regard as a daily activity given the Top Gear mentality so popular with the mindless .

Where's the rep points when you need them?

 

[Sp!ke]

yes I've read most if not all of the OP's posts but I couldnt be doing with reading all the replies to.

And I still disagree with you Stats.

There was plenty of evidence... enough to force a guilty plea from him. There's also enough of the OP's own evidence in the thread to show that he's telling half truths still.

Yes, I agree it opens ones eyes as to the consequences but I dont think that was the OP's initial intention.

 

[davidjpowell]

Whether he is in denial or not, the fact remains that his post is very sobering, and if it makes drivers consider their manner of driving I believe it was well worth him having made the effort of explaining his side of the story and also importantly the consequences, which I believe is what really drive it home.

Personally at this stage it is pretty moot as to how much culpability each driver had. The die has been cast. 10 pence has been punished for making a mistake which many keen drivers have made in the past and will make again no doubt. He and the biker were both unlucky in that they were both in the vincinity at the same time. I am sure that the biker has had compensation from the insurance company, but that cannot possilby bring his life back to where it was.

My father had a similar incident many years ago, when he was edging out of a side road, onto a national speed limit road, where traffic going immediately past the junction was queing. He was turning right, and had to edge out to both make progress and increase visibilty of traffic coming from the left. Unfortunately a motorbike was overtaking past the queue and crashed into the side of my fathers car. The bike did travel some distance, and the biker broke some bones. My father was done for driving without due care and attention. His memory of the events was completely messed up with shock, and he ended up in hospital after hyperventilating and collapsing.

The message that I think we can all take from this is whether we think we are safe driving at the speeds we are doing, if we make a mistake it can does have real life consequences on others lives. I shall (and since reading this thread have) look at the merits slightly differently of that fast corner, or quick overtake.

 

[stats007]

Well you're plain wrong then, Spike. The accident happened over 2 years ago - maybe you should have spoken up then .

 

[Sp!ke]

Another well reasoned debate from Stats

 

[davidjpowell]

yes I've read most if not all of the OP's posts but I couldnt be doing with reading all the replies to.

And I still disagree with you Stats.

There was plenty of evidence... enough to force a guilty plea from him. There's also enough of the OP's own evidence in the thread to show that he's telling half truths still.

Yes, I agree it opens ones eyes as to the consequences but I dont think that was the OP's initial intention.

Sorry I really disagree with this. I have just looked at his original post again and just do not see it. In it he takes all the responsiblity, and to be honest the scene that he describes is all too vivid. If he did not want to take responsibilty all he had to do was keep quiet! He has not boasted about his driving in any post that I read, but has talked about the effects that his mistake had. As for looking to get away with the minimum sentance, then that is the way our justice system works. It would be a brave man who said I made a mistake hit me with the full wack!

 

[Sp!ke]

The original post does lend itself to thinking this way David and for a while I thought the same.

However having kept on reading and seen the various points in the thread where despite admitting fault on the one hand, the OP was deliberately vague where it mattered and then even suggested that he wasn't moving on impact. Coupled with a few other comments it became quite clear that he was trying to shift some of the blame or at the very least add some doubt to the true cause of the incident.

His side of the story simply does not add up, if it did, I agree with what you say wholeheartedly but once I realised that he's still not facing up to the truth I think the only really sobering part of the story is that the system has failed and justice has still not yet been served.. not at least until TPS *really* holds his hands up or completes his full sentence.

He took ten days short of a year to finally plead guilty. How much extra pressure did this put on the victim and family I wonder?