£60 fine and three points on licence for minor accidents

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Satch, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. jj_uk

    jj_uk New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    Car:
    E220 CDi Estate
    ‘Penalties’ are not raised for those who are proved guilty in court. You simply lose the right to the discount afforded by an early guilty plea or acceptance of a fpn. This distinction has become increasingly important following the introduction of new sentencing guidelines in August this year. Court fines for road traffic offences such as speeding which might previously have borne some correlation to a fpn are now explicitly based on income. The starting point for many road traffic offence fines is now 100% of weekly income. Against this a £60 fpn will look attractive for many.

    I am yet to hear a convincing defence against a speeding charge. There is a huge amount of rubbish on the internet which gets trotted out in court time after time. Even with hand-held detectors, if the traffic officer has received the appropriate training and the detector has been properly calibrated and he/she says you are speeding you’re going to be mightily hard-pressed to come up with a decent defence. In my experience, most people who contest their speeding tickets in court seem to wish to use the courtroom to vent their annoyance at being caught rather than to mount a credible defence.

    Magistrates do no pre-judge. Almost all drive too (I’ve only met one who doesn’t drive). If we have fewer points than average (I doubt there are any statistics on this) it is probably only because, until very recently, we would receive a stern reprimand and had to send a letter of apology on getting any penalty points.

    I do have severe reservations about increasing the use of fpns. But, as has already been pointed out here, they can always be challenged in court. A court will only convict if one is found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, which is a pretty high burden of proof. It’s quite common for all three magistrates sitting on a trial to believe that someone is probably guilty but to acquit them because the prosecution has failed to prove the matter beyond reasonable doubt.
     
  2. MrT

    MrT Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    268
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Location:
    Midlands
    Car:
    2013 SLK 250 CDI AMG Sport
    No, but they are worse than the ****ing criminals. Busybodies.

    This proposal is just about reducing court costs and freeing up the courts. I don't believe that anyone will be inclined to challenge one of these tickets because the penalty will be higher if the appeal is not upheld, and it's easier just to pay the fine.

    As others have said, the Busybodies will just randomly assign blame to whoever they like, then that person's insurance company will hold it against them if they accept the FPN.
     
  3. UnMarked

    UnMarked Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    191
    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    West Yorks
    Car:
    Various-depends on the weather
    And you'd know this would you? You have some factual evidence to back this up, or is this another example of motoring hysteria/paranoia that seems to be cropping up more and more and whipped into a frenzy by particular sections of the media? :crazy:
     
  4. popuptoaster

    popuptoaster Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Car:
    2000 E55 AMG Estate
    I've delt with a lot of coppers in my life, usually from the wrong side of the law and i have to say most of em are decent people, there are some ****s as well, just like in real life, but given what what idiots they have to deal with i'm not suprised, luckily i live in a fairly nice area and the cops tend to be nice too, you soon notice the difference between the police in Brentwood and Romford or Grays, if the general public in your area are mostly drunken ***** then the plod tend to play safe for themselves and come on heavier than if you live somewhere where most people are politeand law abiding.

    The simple answer to anyone whinging about this is to not get caught misbehaving, i dont drive like an angel, but if your to blind to see a speed trap you really shouldnt be driving let alone speeding.
     
  5. neilrr

    neilrr MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,392
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Car:
    Various.
    I'm curious, what do you have to do wrong to get that many points?
     
  6. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Thats the bit I find hard to swallow.

    Shunts happen, especially low speed dings in traffic queues and parking prangs. Its not a crime, just a civil matter for the 2 people to sort out with their insurers. Why the police need involvement is beyond me.

    The only isntance I can the benefit of this is when someone admits liability to the other party @ the scene, then later withtracts it denying it -leaving the other party to claim on their own insurance. A police involvment would clamp this out.

    However it seems wasteful of their resources to be called out to every supermarket ding dong - especially given the every increasing level of CCTV survellience thats out there watching those who cause prangs and then try and weasel out of this.
     
  7. popuptoaster

    popuptoaster Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Car:
    2000 E55 AMG Estate
    9 counts of no insurance at 8 points each plus various points for car defects as i kept getting stopped and ignoring the tickets they also added on a reckless driving charge when i managed to escape during a police chase cos they knew who i was, they tot up over time and if you avoid your court summons by the time you finally get caught you can have a LOT of offenses to get through. It made affording the insurance on my 8 litre Fairmont when i got out of nick bloody hard work but i couldn't bring myself to buy a Fiesta. lol
     
  8. Dieselman

    Dieselman Banned

    Messages:
    34,206
    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2003
    Car:
    Peugeot 403 Convertible
    At least you insured it. You took the punishment and learned from it, well done.
     
  9. Dieselman

    Dieselman Banned

    Messages:
    34,206
    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2003
    Car:
    Peugeot 403 Convertible
    In the main crashes only happen if one or more parties aren't driving properly or paying attention.
    The driving standard of a driver is not a civil matter at all, it's a Traffic Law issue so is investigated and punishment awarded accordingly, mainly to act as a deterrent and to educate.
    This all fits with the terms of the license we are granted to drive on the roads.

    Your perspective sometimes amazes me, especially as you claim to be a member of IAM, or at least have passed an advanced driving test.
     
  10. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Likewise your prespective sometimes amazes and bewilders me, but never mind. Some folk think differently to others.

    Anyway, I digress, what about minor parking dings. I may well reverse my long and hard to see out of saloon car into some elses car, its a minor mistake, I fess up to the other party and we swap details. My insurer pays out - why on earth do the police have to be involved. Is it really a constructive use of police time and resources? It is a civil matter as its accidental damage, you could argue pedantically that its driving without due care and attention, but the reality is that it isn't, its a misjudgement. I pranged my X5 into a council bin on Oban once, I picked up the bin (I wish I left it lying, it was effing heavy) and drove off. It was hardly a case of 3pts and £60 fine.

    Another querie, what if the accident happens on private land?

    Happy christmas by the way :D
     
  11. UnMarked

    UnMarked Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    191
    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    West Yorks
    Car:
    Various-depends on the weather
    Section 170 Road Traffic Act 1988

    DUTY OF DRIVER TO STOP, REPORT ACCIDENT AND GIVE INFORMATION OR DOCUMENTS
    1) This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which -
    (a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
    (b) damage is caused -
    (i) to a vehicle other than that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle........


    road being a public road or a place where the public have access.

    Therefore the answer to your query is it would not generally be a police matter as it would not be covered under the Road Traffic Act. :D
     
  12. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Thank you, very useful. Technically a supermarket car park prang would come under this heading as the public have access. So if someone scrapes my car and we swap details, the police needs informed I take it. What number do you call, surely not 999.

    Happy xmas to you too.
     
  13. popuptoaster

    popuptoaster Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Car:
    2000 E55 AMG Estate
    That really bloody annoys me, if your not spacially aware enough to know how long you hard to see out of car is you shouldnt be allowed to drive it, your casual attitude that its alright as long as you confess is terrible, if you do that to me it might be fine for you to get your car repaired at a dealers within a few days but mine take time to get parts for, some body panels and trim are no longer available and some twonk in a carpark not knowing how big his car is (thank god you havent run any children over while parking) can damage something that i actually cherish. I know its a risk taking a classic car out on the road, but it would be less risky if people could drive properly, i already park miles from anywhere in big supermarket car parks as no woman i've ever met seems to know how long her car doors are.
     
  14. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Thank god you didn't run anyway one over whilst driving minus insurance. We all mistakes, its how we deal with them that counts ;)

    The bit in bold really irks me, I don't know how fast you manouver your car, but the speeds one does whilst reversing into a space (or out of it) would not seriously injure anyone, and when seeing padestrians nearby when manouvering I tend to stop and let them by.

    Its not a casual attidute I have, but mistakes happen, even to the best of people. A small error of judgement when manouvering a large car or small car and damaging another is an everyday occurance in Britain, and not a serious issue, if you report it to the owner of the property who's you've damaged. Swapping details and trying to put right what you did wrong is a step in the right direction and at least an attempt @ taking repsonsibility for your actions, how the police need involved in this process is still beyond me. However its the law as I have learned from unmarked post so so be it.

    So many "twonks" in car parks drive off after a ding dong, both my BMW's had scrapes which I didn't put there, and both were left with in car parks. If I did that to someone elses car, I'd leave mine so I could put right what I did wrong. I don't see it as a matter for the police - I never called them to say my car had been minorly damaged after either incident. Perhaps I should have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2008
  15. popuptoaster

    popuptoaster Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Car:
    2000 E55 AMG Estate
    you dont have to be going fast to hurt someone, i saw my mate get his foot run over while he was crossing the road, it was his fault for standing so close to the car, but the driver was only creeping along, could happen in a car park to anyone and a child or old person could be pushed over even if your only idleing the car along. I still say if your in the habit of making mistakes like backing into bins and parked cars maybe you need a smaller car or at least one you can see out of.
     
  16. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    I only bashed the car once, it wasn't this particular car although I am not impressed with the rearward visibility on the 211 due to the length of the boot. I tend to back it into spaces so I can drive out, with better visibility. I've never had a saloon car before, just 4x4s and hatch backs where the rear of the car was easier to see - I rely more on judgement and spacial awereness with this car. I have parking sensors but you can never fully rely on them, a dose of common sense is required.

    You're right though, the next car I have will not be as long as the E class, as I do not need such a large car for just one of me.
     
  17. UnMarked

    UnMarked Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    191
    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    West Yorks
    Car:
    Various-depends on the weather
    Merry Christmas also

    Supermarket car-parks, shopping malls, pub car-parks, car-boot sales etc - but they have to be open at the time to the public. If someone scrapes your car and you exchange details then S170 is complied with and you do not need to inform the police. However, if you or the other driver or a witness believes there are other factors at play (alcohol, drugs, careless/dangerous driving etc) then the police should be requested.

    In the case of any injuries - however minor - again the police should be requested.

    I wouldn't ring 999 unless it was an emergency and/or you needed them quickly (this would be your call). All forces have local non-emergency numbers as an alternative to the 9 system.

    Hope this clears things up a little! :D
     
  18. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Thanks for this, it clears things up a lot. The papers never really gave the full details to what I wanted to know.
     
  19. popuptoaster

    popuptoaster Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Car:
    2000 E55 AMG Estate
    sorry for being a bit stroppy about it, i've had a few bad experiances and as im a grumpy bugger i whinge first and ask questions later.
     
  20. st4

    st4 Banned

    Messages:
    14,374
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    In the driving seat
    Car:
    C220cdi tourer
    Don't worry about it, its hard to get your point accross using PC's as a method of communication anyway.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.