1997 Mercedes C250TD Mark 1 Oil Rings. Some good advice needed.

[Futureoils.com]

Thanks Graeme, I'll get back to you about the Duckhams oil but I'm pretty sure it's synthetic. I'm 99% sure this wasn't a taxi as you can usually tell from excessive pedal and seat wear plus the car seems nice and tight to drive.

 

[spock500]

Just as an add on to my last post;

I had many recommendations on which fluids if poured into the bores, left to soak could possibly release the rings, I tried most things, ATF, diesel, bio, petrol without success.

When I finally removed the pistons I was faced with the same problem, a quick call to the engine centre and do you know what they suggested -

Hot water

Put the pistons in a bucket of hot water, the different types of metal (rings/piston) expand at different rates and off they popped!

This is why I think your best chance is to get the engine hot under load

 

[Futureoils.com]

Forgot to ask. Can anyone recommend the best place to buy a reconditioned engine on a part exchange basis? (if I need to go down this line)

 

[Futureoils.com]

Thanks David, I'll pass this info on to the mechanic if he gets stuck. Hats off to your perseverance.

 

[Futureoils.com]

He seems to think the oil ring seals are gone which is quite shocking for a car that has supposedly covered only 70,000 miles low city mileage. (HPI checked) I purchased the car 2 years ago with 52,000 on the clock

Sorry mate but I think you may have bought a former taxi! Have you checked the engine number against the VIN by the way? Did the Duckhams 10W40 oil meet MB specs or did you fall foul of the "synthetic based" or "using synthetic technology" advertising speak of the jolly green giant that is BP? If the engine in the 190D was non turbo then there is world of thermal stress difference between the two engines. e.g. Most turbo engines have additional oil spray jets playing on the underside of the pistons to keep them cool. If one or more of these got blocked then the potential for overheated pistons/rings would markedly increase!
Hi Graeme I checked the Duckhams oil I was using is 10W-40 synthetic based oil but does meet MB229.1 specifications if that helps.

 

[spock500]

Hey bud,

The 96/97 were the cross over years from using composite to multilayer metal head gaskets due to failures -

Has you mechanic ruled out head gasket failure?

 

[Futureoils.com]

Hi David,

He advised me to start pricing a new head gasket set, sump gaskets, a set of piston rings and said I might as well get some new valve stem seals put in but told me not to go ahead with the order until he's stripped down the engine. Before I commit to this 1500 euro ordeal I'm going to try running a full tank of diesel, with a high quality engine oil flush to try and free out the rings before adding a litre of Ametech engine restore oil to 5.5 litres of Mobil turbo diesel oil and change the oil filter. The Ametech oil is expensive at £45.00 per litre

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-litre-can-AMETECH-Engine-RESTORE-oil_W0QQitemZ260346275475QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3c9dd8e693&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

but the seller has offered me a full refund if I'm not completely satisfied the excessive oil consumption, blow by, blue smoke and compression has been drastically improved after 500 miles so I thought it's got to be worth a try. Would you recommend buying a new multilayer metal head gasket set instead?

The mechanic hasn't ruled anything out (but suspects it's the rings) as he hasn't had the chance to strip the engine down but when I drove it today it drives quite well once it has warmed up. The engine only seems strangled during the warm up period. I'll be very surprised if this engine restore oil does anything to cure the problem but we'll see what happens. What's the best engine flush on the market prior to an oil change or is this a waste of time as I used a full bottle of engine flush on the 2nd last oil change?

 

[johnsco]

I'm sorry to be a bit downbeat again .....
BUT

I don't think that Ametech "magic" restore oil is going to cure this problem.

I would run it hard and hot on a tank of premium diesel fuel.
Do not run it hard with engine flush added to your engine oil, as the lubricating properties of engine flush are not good enough.

If this doesn't cure it, I would put my money towards fitting a recon engine with warranty and stop throwing good money at this problem engine.

Good Luck.
Johnsco

 

[ABBY]

hi

I used to have a similar car in zimbabwe with the same problem.those cars are prone to block the intercooler.it needs to be flushed or replaced.when bottom hose is removed it will actually drip oil.there will also be signs of oil on your induction pipes. As to loosing performance occasionally check a little gause on the fuel filter intake.this blocks up after a few years of work.

good luck

Abby

 

[spock500]

Dylan,

From what you have explained so far I dont think its the rings.

The mileage is way too low for wear unless the car has been really mistreated. I would go with a head gasket as you may have one of the early turbos fitted with a single layer composite which were replaced around this time with multi layer metal due to failures.

As the engine heats up it will expand and could seal the gap, worn or stick rings are unlikely to do this -

The easiest way is to do a compression test, if its a gasket breach one of the cylinder will be down on pressure with the other four being ok, again if it were rings all five would be down.

Forget the additives waste of time, spend your money on a compression tester

Replacing the head gasket is not a hard job but the head will need a skim plus new bolts (theres 22 of them at about £7 each) also replace with multi layer metal gasket which is around£70 OEM.

Have you checked the water for oil? you can buy a cheap tester from ebay which turns blue when gasses are detected in the water -

I purchased all my parts which are OEM direct from Germany to save a few pennies but used a UK supplier -

 

[Futureoils.com]

Dylan,

From what you have explained so far I dont think its the rings.

The mileage is way too low for wear unless the car has been really mistreated. I would go with a head gasket as you may have one of the early turbos fitted with a single layer composite which were replaced around this time with multi layer metal due to failures.

As the engine heats up it will expand and could seal the gap, worn or stick rings are unlikely to do this -

The easiest way is to do a compression test, if its a gasket breach one of the cylinder will be down on pressure with the other four being ok, again if it were rings all five would be down.

Forget the additives waste of time, spend your money on a compression tester

Replacing the head gasket is not a hard job but the head will need a skim plus new bolts (theres 22 of them at about £7 each) also replace with multi layer metal gasket which is around £70 OEM.

Have you checked the water for oil? you can buy a cheap tester from ebay which turns blue when gasses are detected in the water.

(Thanks David, Much appreciated I'll certainly check this out
Just on eBay but couldn't find this. What should I search for?)

I purchased all my parts which are OEM direct from Germany to save a few pennies but used a UK supplier -

(Any chance you could let me have the contact details of your OEM supplier and do you know if my part numbers will be identical to yours or different as it's a C250TD?)

Let's hope the multi layered metal head gasket does the job. Then this post will be useful to many more. I'll request an immediate compression test right away as I'm 99% sure it's got the composite head gasket being the Mark 1 C250TD.

I'll keep you posted with the results.

Thanks again,

Dylan

 

[spock500]

Dylan,

This is the place for parts, ask for Graham he's the boss and very knowledgeable - mention my name along with car (C250D) and he will hang up just kidding, give him the chassis number off your log book and he will do the rest - UltraParts

This is what you want, ask Graham if he has any in stock -

How to tell if head gasket is blown? - dslreports.com

It's the post half way down;

Combustion Leak Detector - Engine Block, Test Tools Inc.; Test For Cracked Blocks, Leaky Gaskets, Cracked or Warped Heads

Part : BK 7001006
Product Line : Balkamp
Price : $49.99

Features and Benefits :
Locates Combustion Leaks w/o Guess Work, Test in Seconds, Removes Guess Work From Job

Attributes :
Manufacturer : Test Tools Inc.
Product Application : Test For Cracked Blocks, Leaky Gaskets, Cracked or Warped Heads
Contents : Aspirator Bulb w/ Valve, Large Engine Adapter & Leak Test Fluid

 

[Futureoils.com]

Dylan,

This is the place for parts, ask for Graham he's the boss and very knowledgeable - mention my name along with car (C250D) and he will hang up just kidding, give him the chassis number off your log book and he will do the rest - UltraParts

This is what you want, ask Graham if he has any in stock -

How to tell if head gasket is blown? - dslreports.com

It's the post half way down;

Combustion Leak Detector - Engine Block, Test Tools Inc.; Test For Cracked Blocks, Leaky Gaskets, Cracked or Warped Heads

Part : BK 7001006
Product Line : Balkamp
Price : $49.99

Features and Benefits :
Locates Combustion Leaks w/o Guess Work, Test in Seconds, Removes Guess Work From Job

Attributes :
Manufacturer : Test Tools Inc.
Product Application : Test For Cracked Blocks, Leaky Gaskets, Cracked or Warped Heads
Contents : Aspirator Bulb w/ Valve, Large Engine Adapter & Leak Test Fluid

(Nice one David, Thanks again for all your help. Where would we be without people like you on the net? )

 

[Number_Cruncher]

>>I would go with a head gasket

Unless you test the compressions, you're guessing. Replacing a head gasket isn't a cheap guess.

 

[nick mercedes]

I just got my 97 C250TD back after 2 weeks in the garage after having the turbo, exhaust manifold seals and main engine rocker gasket seal replaced in a number of attempts to stop the engine consuming oil at a rate of 1.5 litres every 300 miles. The exhaust smoke is clear at low revs but the mechanic has told me that there is excessive amounts of oil being ejected after he pulled off the breather at higher revs. The engine seems to run fine when it has reached normal operating temperature but occasionally the power seems strangled for the first few minutes when driving from a cold start and this is accompanied by a slightly blue puff of smoke from the exhaust.

A used engine might be your best bet, it sounds like yours is worn out, - oil getting past the rings.

 

[spock500]

Hi Dylan,

I have noticed a few twin tanks conversions on Mercedes getting ring gumming issues with one chap coming to see me tomorrow for a comp test.

Without going into too much detail there is a flaw in the twin tank setups which allows veggie fuel to be pump into the diesel tank.

Posted this on a veggie forum;

The problem is with the return line which splits into two, the twin tank conversions I have seen do not recognise this.

When running on the veg setting veggie fuel will be pushed back into the diesel filter and potential back into the diesel fuel tank - the one way valves in some cases are electric and therefore will be open.

Where you have a looped veg return the push back to the tank could be very high indeed.

vegetableoildiesel.co.uk - London veg expert needed! - Powered by XMB

Whilst this may not be a direct cause of failure it may have contributed if the rings are in fact gummed up, although this only applies to twin tank conversions.

I'll post some diagrams once I have them together for folks to discuss.

 

[compress ignite]

Engine Woes

I'm going with Number Cruncher,Grober and Spock500 suggestions...

AND one of my own,
1.DO NOT ADD ANYTHING TO THE PROPER VISCOSITY Mobil 1
["SNAKE Oil",Treatments,Additives<Etc. always do more harm than good!
AND the purveyor NEVER voluntarily replaces your engine!]

2.Add the correct amount of Redline 85 to an almost empty fuel tank,Fill your Diesel tank with the Best #2 Diesel you can buy. Do this 3-4 times and drive it "like you stole it".http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/7.pdf

The Mobil one will help (If anything can) cleanup the internals
The Redline 85 will help "DeCarbonize" the combustion chambers
[AND Hopefully your Rings] (If anything can).

This is the least expensive ATTEMPT to correct your PERCEIVED Symptoms.

This corrective action should be followed by a Compression/Leak Down
Testing sequence if results are not favorable!

 

[Futureoils.com]

Thanks David and to Compress Ignite,

The cars back with the mechanic at the moment so I'm going to be very interested to see if he thinks the problems are down to the SVO. Not a big fan of the twin tank systems to be honest as I had no trouble running my old 190D on the SVO for years only installing a set of Bosch Duraterm glow plugs, Bosch glow plug afterglow control unit and a stainless steel coolant in line fuel heat exchanger. I then decided to go for the C250TD as Elsbett.com stated this engine would be suited to a single tank conversion and looking at the details of the kit at:

1. Technical description of the conversion kit
The kit contains all relevant parts necessary for the modification of your Diesel engine to be operated with vegetable oil according to the „Vegetable Oil Quality Standard“.
Specifically, the conversion kit contains - among other parts - the following components:
• Injection nozzle inserts
• Glow plugs
• Fuel filter
• Hydraulic fuel heat exchanger
• Electric fuel pre-heater (assembled on the fuel filter)
• Temperature sensor
• Relays and relay holder
• Fuel lines
• Coolant lines
• Manual fuel feed pump (to bleed the fuel system)
• Instructions for installation
Wires for the electric system are supplied, as the length dimensions are not predictable. Wire
capacities are to be seen from the wiring scheme which is part of the delivery package.
Cable colours can vary from time to time. All components have to be installed according to the
instructions and in consideration of the applicable safety standards!

ENGINE

ECO-Tuning - wiring diagram EA1
Generalsuggestion
for diesel-engines with
engine-temp.-controlled
pre- and post-heating glowplug-
system.

ELSBETT Technologie GmbH; Weissenburger Strasse 15; D-91177 Thalmässing
Tel.:+49 (0)9173-77940; Fax: +49 (0)9173-77942
Internet: http://www.elsbett.com; E-mail: [email protected]
Copyright © 1998-2003 by ELSBETT - Version 11.03.2003– general-fuel-IP-deutsch/englisch

ENG: Integrate the heat exchanger in a
circulating water-cycle (ex. parallel to the
cabin heater) without reducing the water
flow and disturbing the de-ventilation.
�� OUT
ESP—IP
IN ��

ENG: Remove the original „“Back-pipe: Injection-
pump – Fuel-tank“ and replace it by the
original pipe „Fuel-tank – Injection-pump“! The
new feeding line shall be assembled according
to the following diagram!. Alternative to the
plastic pipe (B1-09) the kit may contain a 10mm
rubber hose (B1-15). Further in this case parts
B1-10 and B1-13 are not included in the kit.

Max. suction pressure -
0.3bar

Conversion instructions for diesel engines with inline injection pump systems
Anl. / App. 1/ Fuel system/ general suggestion IP/IDI/DI

Original fuel transfer pump
Original Filter

Assemble the electrical filter heater EFH-01

The conversion kit comes with detailed and illustrated listing of all components

so I think it best to wait for the mechanics visual diagnosis of this problem so we can get a definitive answer as to whether or not he thinks the problem is due to the fact the car was clocked before I bought it, (which I don't think it was looking at the lack of seat, pedal and interior wear) poorly maintained (False service history) or down to the SVO but Elsbett are a highly SVO conversion company in the business for over 30 years so if they say this engine is suited to a single tank conversion then I'm thinking it could be down to poor previous maintenance as they don't supply special vegetable oil piston rings with the single tank kit detailed above???

 

[compress ignite]

'orrible Analogy,But...

If I take a vehicle to a "Transmission Shop", 99 times out of 100 the diagnosis
will be "It needs a ReBuild". (What else would I Expect them to say?)

Elsbett is in the business of selling "Conversion Kits",so of course ALL vehicles
(Including Stanley Steamers) "Are Excellent Candidates"

All of that said,the 18 yr old across the street has been running his dad's
(former) 1990 Ford F350 V-8 Diesel Truck [with an aftermarket Turbocharger]
on used Automatic Transmission Fluid for about four years.
(Think of all the microscopic,and larger particles left in that fluid).
He gets the used ATF from his grandfather who owns a Transmission shop,for free.
I keep waiting for the truck to refuse to start(either accelerated IP wear,or
clogged pre-chambers due to ATFs excessive unburned remainder.)
'The Damn truck refuses to die!

So there are Always Anomalys ! (to Confuse and Obfuscate us)

 

[Adam230K]

A used engine might be your best bet, it sounds like yours is worn out, - oil getting past the rings.

I agree with Nick.

This is something to consider, because it sounds like its just your engine block at fault, and when you buy a second hand engine its usually just the engine block u get sold, no turbo or loom etc etc.

Have a good look, you might be surprised.