All C43 AMG owners - What shall I do?

[dejongj]

There's really only one way ahead with this problem and that is MB have said that it is cold weather related and yes its certainly happening a lot during the cold weather at the moment. But soon the warmer weather will arrive and unless this problem either disappears or is reduced down to an acceptable level then MB have no where to hide and will have to admit its a problem that needs attention. There is sufficient video evidence showing the scale of the problem and it shouldn't be difficult to test these same vehicles during warmer weather. I reckon MB are holding fire in the hope this problem will go away but little do they know that warm weather isn't always good for your health. Does anyone actually know whether winter tyres reduces/fixes this problem or are we all assuming it will if we spent 3k on new tyres/wheels?

The reports from those that have gone for winter tyres that I've seen are universally ok.

My issue is, which I just now discussed with my dealer;
a) At what point should one switch to winter tyres - traditionally this is when the ambient temperature is persistently below 7 degrees. But considering I've had this vehicle do it at 13 degrees, then when should I switch?
b) And what winter tyres fit my staggered 21" wheel setup with MO marking?
c) Where do I store a set of 4 21" wheels and tyres for six months of the year?
d) How is the additional expenditure of say £4,500 going to be covered to enjoy my car for the other six months of the year.

It will differ for everyone, I for one aren't totally happy to have to swap, store and expend more money for winter tyres. To me it is material information that should have been provided prior to the purchase.

 

[DRIVER200]

If, as I suspect, the whole issue is due to the RHD transfer box, but the effect varies with respect to geometry and tyre combinations, then the wide variety in the manifestations of this issue is understandable.

The oil temp in the transfer box and its settings wrt torque share will all have an impact.

Despite the above, I suspect the fix might be a recall to fit lock stops.

The reports from those that have gone for winter tyres that I've seen are universally ok.

My issue is, which I just now discussed with my dealer;
a) At what point should one switch to winter tyres - traditionally this is when the ambient temperature is persistently below 7 degrees. But considering I've had this vehicle do it at 13 degrees, then when should I switch?
b) And what winter tyres fit my staggered 21" wheel setup with MO marking?
c) Where do I store a set of 4 21" wheels and tyres for six months of the year?
d) How is the additional expenditure of say £4,500 going to be covered to enjoy my car for the other six months of the year.

It will differ for everyone, I for one aren't totally happy to have to swap, store and expend more money for winter tyres. To me it is material information that should have been provided prior to the purchase.

I see your point but I am still a little confused about whether winter tyres/warm weather will reduce/eradicate the problem. Are you expecting your particular cluncking/juddering to disappear/significantly reduce during warmer weather as based on your 13c test day assume not? Furthermore, I still think the summer months will be the test bed for this problem as surely MB cannot continue to use the weather/tyre argument?

 

[kid-jensen]

Putting in Lock-stops as a "fix" is like putting a brick under the accelerator to improve fuel consumption...

Can't believe they suggested it with a straight face..

 

[grober]

Folks might like to take a look at these two explanatory links which shows steering and suspension is far from simple!
Wheel Alignment Terms

Wheel Alignment Explained

One term of interest would be TOOT! toe-out on turns Its that pesky Ackerman guy again. Deals with the different angles the front wheels adopt on full lock. It can be measured !!! typical acceptable values for turned angles might be 20 degrees for the inner wheel [ smaller turning radius] and 18 degrees for the outer [ longer turning radius] i.e a difference of 2 degrees Might be interesting for someone who has problems with their GLC to get this measured to see if their personal measured TOOT was within normal or Mercedes published acceptible parameters?
This is stuff only a pukka wheel alignment establishment could do
accurately enough. They should also have the necessary alignment figures.

quote:-

When you steer a car through a turn, the outside front wheel has to navigate a wider arc than the inside wheel. For this reason, the inside front wheel must steer at a sharper angle than the outside wheel.

Toe-out on turns is measured by the turning angle gauges (turn plates) that are a part of every wheel alignment machine. The readings are either directly on the turn plate or they are measured electronically and displayed on the screen. Wheel alignment specifications will usually provide the measurements for toe-out on turns. They will give an angle for the inside wheel and the outside wheel such as 20º for the inside wheel and 18º for the outside wheel. Make sure that the readings are at zero on each side when the wheels are straight ahead, then turn the steering wheel so that the inside wheel is at the inside spec. then check the outside wheel. The toe-out angles are accomplished by the angle of the steering arm. This arm allows the inside wheel to turn sharper than the outside wheel. The steering arm is either part of the steering knuckle or part of the ball joint and is not adjustable. If there is a problem with the toe-out, it is due to a bent steering arm that must be replaced.

ps due to changes in camber at full lock from the positive caster Mercedes run it might be instructive to see if TOOT changes with changes in tyre effective contact patch with different tyre widths/ aspect ratios

 

[grober]

dup

 

[dejongj]

I see your point but I am still a little confused about whether winter tyres/warm weather will reduce/eradicate the problem. Are you expecting your particular cluncking/juddering to disappear/significantly reduce during warmer weather as based on your 13c test day assume not? Furthermore, I still think the summer months will be the test bed for this problem as surely MB cannot continue to use the weather/tyre argument?

In the UK, no as the summers aren't that hot anymore and it happens across a variety of tyres and sizes. It truly is a weird one, but one for Mercedes to resolve.

 

[dejongj]

Folks might like to take a look at these two explanatory links which shows steering and suspension is far from simple!
Wheel Alignment Terms

Wheel Alignment Explained

One term of interest would be TOOT! toe-out on turns Its that pesky Ackerman guy again. Deals with the different angles the front wheels adopt on full lock. It can be measured !!! typical acceptable values for turned angles might be 20 degrees for the inner wheel [ smaller turning radius] and 18 degrees for the outer [ longer turning radius] i.e a difference of 2 degrees Might be interesting for someone who has problems with their GLC to get this measured to see if their personal measured TOOT was within normal or Mercedes published acceptible parameters?
This is stuff only a pukka wheel alignment establishment could do
accurately enough. They should also have the necessary alignment figures.

Mine is going in to Wheels-In-Motion in Chesham tomorrow - I guess they count like pukka don't they

I'll ask them about the TOOT TOOT but won't ask about the BEEP BEEP Seriously though, thanks for the advice.

Mercedes offered me today that they can pickup my vehicle and do it for me as well. Shame they only offer it now and not all previously. I'd like to keep my appointment with that company even though I know I won't get reimbursed for it.

 

[DRIVER200]

Mine is going in to Wheels-In-Motion in Chesham tomorrow - I guess they count like pukka don't they

I'll ask them about the TOOT TOOT but won't ask about the BEEP BEEP Seriously though, thanks for the advice.

Mercedes offered me today that they can pickup my vehicle and do it for me as well. Shame they only offer it now and not all previously. I'd like to keep my appointment with that company even though I know I won't get reimbursed for it.

Good luck but do you think MB will take any notice of third party involvement?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Mine is going in to Wheels-In-Motion in Chesham tomorrow - I guess they count like pukka don't they

I'll ask them about the TOOT TOOT but won't ask about the BEEP BEEP Seriously though, thanks for the advice.

Mercedes offered me today that they can pickup my vehicle and do it for me as well. Shame they only offer it now and not all previously. I'd like to keep my appointment with that company even though I know I won't get reimbursed for it.

I'd think twice about rejecting MB offer on favour of a third party.

 

[DRIVER200]

I'd think twice about rejecting MB offer on favour of a third party.

Agreed. Might have been better to wait and see what MB results were first. I know MB haven't really been sympathetic with you but best keep them sweet going forward and play by their rules for the time being.

 

[dejongj]

Good luck but do you think MB will take any notice of third party involvement?

I'd think twice about rejecting MB offer on favour of a third party.

Agreed. Might have been better to wait and see what MB results were first. I know MB haven't really been sympathetic with you but best keep them sweet going forward and play by their rules for the time being.

I did discuss that openly with my Mercedes Dealer today. They are content with the results from that company. And are happy to discuss tyres if it turns out geometry related as they've been too slow to respond to that.

We agreed I would share the outcome with them tomorrow and we'll discuss next steps there after.

 

[grober]

I'm not sure of the protocol employed to measure Toot but I imagine it goes a bit like the explanation where the inner wheel is set to certain angle {20 degrees}? and then the outer angle compared. The difference measured to be within certain tolerances. However this angle might be a bit " conservative" in comparison to the steering angle at which the effect is experienced. It might be instructive to measure TOOT at the angle the effect is experienced for a comparison to see if the steering does in fact start to go outwith acceptible ackerman principles ? This would mean of course that the car might well be within the manufacturers tolerances but still go some way to explain why the problem is occurring

only MB setting I could find for W205 AMG chassis was -1degree 25min +/-30min at a 20 degree inner wheel steering angle [ 1 degree= 60 minutes arc]
no separate setting for the 253 [GLC] chassis I could find ??

W205 "Toot " Varies slightly across the W205 range depending whether they are rwd/4wd, rhd /lhd normal/ sports suspension etc
e.g. an example to show the range of variation.

W205 code 486[ sports suspension] LHD -1degree30min [=/- 30min]
W205 code 486[ sports suspension] RHD -1degree54min [=/- 30min]

 

[HumberMart]

I'd be surprised if Ackerman was to blame.

(interestingly spell check wanted to change this to 'Mackerel', so maybe there is something fishy going on, Lol)

I'm basing my theory on the trend that suggests the phenomena is by far stronger in 4WD/RHD combos. Why don't RWD/RHD's suffer like this, or almost any LHD's whether 2 or 4 wheel drive?

Surely Mercedes can get the geometry right it that's all it is?

Me thinks that they were rapidly losing market share in both the GLK sector (mid size SUV) in the UK, and also competing with Quattro/X-Drive German rivals.

They'd tried and failed before to convert the GLK to RHD (relying forum intelligence), so they became desperate, and rushed out the RHD 4WD 'GLK Class' system to the UK etc without full beta testing (guess their only tests were done in Summer, like when they never came across an Elk in the original A Class).

The compromised transfer box dimensions, have caused a fault with the diff....

... oh wait, maybe the compromised dimensions on RHD vehicles have pushed the geometry beyond that advised by Ackerman.

Fascinating topic for those who haven't bough one.

 

[Tony Mac]

Interesting as I too have Conti's on 19's and haven't really had significant Crabbing/Juddering but it might be just luck on my part as my driving routines may vary to yours. Suggest you take it for a proper spin -good idea anyway with a new car- and see how you get on. Assume you did not experience this during a test drive? Have you spoken to your dealer and if so was their response the Standard MB reply to cold weather tyres?

Reading back through this thread started by DRIVER200, which I had been watching and waiting to hear whether the new car would crab or not. But only just realized that this car is not a GLC, it's a C43 Estate, which I believe has a different wheel base?

Interesting to hear the C43 Estate also suffers from slight wheel slipping, another problem for MB, but not sure we are hearing the same message from other owners, and that this is not specifically relevant to prospective GLC purchasers / owners - It's not a non-crabbing GLC.

Tony

 

[njkmr]

I have been reading this thread with interest and not sure if its the same thing happening with my car which is an SLK55AMG but on reversing with full lock on the front tyres do skip across the surface. Even to the point my daughter noticed and said "whats that noise ?" as it did it. I take it very easy as I reverse onto my drive which is slightly down hill and quite tight to reverse into to but it seems to do it all the time.
Is it the same issue do you think?

 

[C36fan]

I have been reading this thread with interest and not sure if its the same thing happening with my car which is an SLK55AMG but on reversing with full lock on the front tyres do skip across the surface. Even to the point my daughter noticed and said "whats that noise ?" as it did it. I take it very easy as I reverse onto my drive which is slightly down hill and quite tight to reverse into to but it seems to do it all the time.
Is it the same issue do you think?

Crabby paddies anyone?lol

 

[st13phil]

I have been reading this thread with interest and not sure if its the same thing happening with my car which is an SLK55AMG but on reversing with full lock on the front tyres do skip across the surface. Even to the point my daughter noticed and said "whats that noise ?" as it did it. I take it very easy as I reverse onto my drive which is slightly down hill and quite tight to reverse into to but it seems to do it all the time.
Is it the same issue do you think?

It's nothing to worry about. It's just minor tyre scrubbing at (or near) full lock which both my current and previous E63's do / did, my wife's current SLK55 does and her previous SLK350 did. You will find that the effect will be most noticeable in colder conditions - especially so if it's damp too - on summer tyres that are between part worn and nearing the end of their life. In warmer weather or with new tyres fitted you won't experience it on your SLK55.

The issue that people are complaining about on the GLC and C-Class 4WD platform is much more pronounced, and of as yet indeterminate cause.

 

[DRIVER200]

Reading back through this thread started by DRIVER200, which I had been watching and waiting to hear whether the new car would crab or not. But only just realized that this car is not a GLC, it's a C43 Estate, which I believe has a different wheel base?

Interesting to hear the C43 Estate also suffers from slight wheel slipping, another problem for MB, but not sure we are hearing the same message from other owners, and that this is not specifically relevant to prospective GLC purchasers / owners - It's not a non-crabbing GLC.

Tony

Yes, I think we have two separate issues here with a blurred line between the two which makes it difficult to pin it down either way. As I and a few other C 4Matic owners have said crabbing is present under certain conditions and my guess is that some GLC owners who have significant cluncking/juddering would be happy to settle for what we C 4Matic owners' are experiencing as this would then fall neatly into the Ackerman principle arena. Yes its a bit annoying but some people might feel the need to try to avoid it by not engaging full-lock and perhaps doing a 4 point turn instead of a 3 point turn etc.. Clearly this isn't how you should drive a car but I do admit that forcing a car to maneouvre using full-lock which probably puts additional stress/pressure on certain components perhaps should be avoided but that's just an aside and clearly should not be the case. Having said all that there has been a recent post from a C 4Matic owner who said that he had crabbing when pulling out of T-junctions at around 90degrees which throws a spanner into the works of this whole debate but from memory his tyres were stone cold so perhaps the Ackerman principle still applies?

 

[milomaine]

My C43 Coupe (18" Wheels) does this very badly and it seems to be getting worse. The outer edges of both front tyres are showing signs of wear and it's only done 1500 miles. I have to actually slow right down going around mini-roundabouts as its skipped out in the past.
A couple of weeks ago I drove non-stop from my home to Collumpton (about 110 miles) and the car skipped like hell pulling into a parking space, scared the bejeezus out of me and sent shockwaves down my spine.
Saying it's "only a comfort issue" is a pretty big deal to me as I have 5 vertabrae fused together in my c-spine and the skipping is incredibly painful.
My dealer is being very helpful, we even tested a c43 estate they had and it was exactly the same. Tried an amg cla45 4matic at the weekend,very smooth and had no problems at all.
I absolutely love my car but my neck can't keep taking the beating it is now, I'm worried I'm going to do even more damage. Very sad situation

 

[DRIVER200]

My C43 Coupe (18" Wheels) does this very badly and it seems to be getting worse. The outer edges of both front tyres are showing signs of wear and it's only done 1500 miles. I have to actually slow right down going around mini-roundabouts as its skipped out in the past.
A couple of weeks ago I drove non-stop from my home to Collumpton (about 110 miles) and the car skipped like hell pulling into a parking space, scared the bejeezus out of me and sent shockwaves down my spine.
Saying it's "only a comfort issue" is a pretty big deal to me as I have 5 vertabrae fused together in my c-spine and the skipping is incredibly painful.
My dealer is being very helpful, we even tested a c43 estate they had and it was exactly the same. Tried an amg cla45 4matic at the weekend,very smooth and had no problems at all.
I absolutely love my car but my neck can't keep taking the beating it is now, I'm worried I'm going to do even more damage. Very sad situation

If your tyres are showing signs of wear after just 1500 miles what did your dealer say was causing the excessive wear as its clearly not normal and needs to be resolved or you will be replacing your tyres every six months!! Incidentally, when you parked were you on full-lock?