All C43 AMG owners - What shall I do?

[grober]

Quite often the fitment of winter tyres on MB sports models inherently entails a reduction in wheel diameter and width +concommitant increase in tyre aspect ratio *. Higher an aspect ratio the better really but often limited by a limit on wheel diameter reduction due to disc/caliper size especially on Sports/AMG models . Recommended fitments are usually listed in the owners handbook. Unfortunately this usually means buying a new set of wheels in addition to winter tyres! Seems a very expensive exercise which may or may not alleviate the problem. Best option would be to borrow some to test the suggested fix.

* this will explain why certain sizes are simply not manufactured/available

 

[DRIVER200]

To force owners to buy another set of wheels and tyres just to feel safe driving a 40k+ car is absurd. I just don't get the reasoning from MB-UK that it's a comfort issue only, with yourself and others stating clear excessive tyre wear as a result of the fault. Will it take a major accident for MB to take notice and admit this goes beyond a comfort issue. Crabbing at low speed might not in itself be dangerous, but the overall wear and tear can and will one day cause an accident.



You're right - it would be good to find some anecdotal evidence that winter tyres do / do not alleviate the problem. MB-UK are probably hoping that the noise around this issue disappears over the summer - and it will be interesting looking on to see if owners (including myself) report crabbing still exists when the temperature in the UK heads into the teens or higher.

Out of interest are there any owners who collected their car last summer or are we all autumn/winter owners as it would be interesting to hear from them whether their car was OK initially and has gradually gotten worse due to inclement weather. Might be an idea to identify the month/year of delivery in your signature - have done so with mine. Sad I know but this might help as new spring/summer owners arrive to see whether they also have the problem as I am sure this topic will still be on the agenda in the coming months.

 

[Richtw]

September 16 was when I collected mine, I live in the very south so it is never really cold. It has scrubbed from day 1! Initially I though it was just loose ground under the tyres, plus I was blinded by the new car excitement, it is definitely worse colder. That said it happens in a heated warehouse at 20 degC!!

I have done 7000 miles and the front tyres are down to 4mm on the outer edges! Can't see them making it past 9000 miles. The backs are fine and it is rear wheel bias as you know so I am not sure what to make of this!

Car is on PCP so I am not too bothered as I am likely to VT the car as soon as I can unless it is sorted!

 

[DRIVER200]

September 16 was when I collected mine, I live in the very south so it is never really cold. It has scrubbed from day 1! Initially I though it was just loose ground under the tyres, plus I was blinded by the new car excitement, it is definitely worse colder. That said it happens in a heated warehouse at 20 degC!!

I have done 7000 miles and the front tyres are down to 4mm on the outer edges! Can't see them making it past 9000 miles. The backs are fine and it is rear wheel bias as you know so I am not sure what to make of this!

Car is on PCP so I am not too bothered as I am likely to VT the car as soon as I can unless it is sorted!

I think its this type of thing that throws the whole Ackerman argument into doubt as other car manufacturers who also produce cars with this problem eg. Porsche, Jag etc.. don't appear to have had the backlash from owners when their cars scrub a bit as assume it disappears during the warmer months. Can't imagine many Porsche owners reacting the way some MB owners are at the moment or it would have hit the media fan long ago as it really isn't a new problem in the motoring world.
Personally I think 'basic' scrubbing is here to stay but the cluncking/severe juddering that some GLC owners are experiencing needs to be addressed pronto. In my case -fortunately- I don't have the cluncking just occasional scrubbing which may/may not affect tyre wear only time will tell. Its interesting as when I had an Audi SQ5 and used their forum many owners reported that their tyres only lasted around 9000 miles but thought nothing of it, but of course that is down to driving style dynamics etc.. and not scrubbing related; or was it? X files music playing in the background. My SQ5 tyres still had decent thread left when I moved it on at 15,000 miles so perhaps driving style with MB owners especially AMG owners may be more aggressive leading to non-scrubbing related wear?

 

[Richtw]

I think its this type of thing that throws the whole Ackerman argument into doubt as other car manufacturers who also produce cars with this problem eg. Porsche, Jag etc.. don't appear to have had the backlash from owners when their cars scrub a bit as assume it disappears during the warmer months. Can't imagine many Porsche owners reacting the way some MB owners are at the moment or it would have hit the media fan long ago as it really isn't a new problem in the motoring world.
Personally I think 'basic' scrubbing is here to stay but the cluncking/severe juddering that some GLC owners are experiencing needs to be addressed pronto. In my case -fortunately- I don't have the cluncking just occasional scrubbing which may/may not affect tyre wear only time will tell. Its interesting as when I had an Audi SQ5 and used their forum many owners reported that their tyres only lasted around 9000 miles but thought nothing of it, but of course that is down to driving style dynamics etc.. and not scrubbing related; or was it? X files music playing in the background. My SQ5 tyres still had decent thread left when I moved it on at 15,000 miles so perhaps driving style with MB owners especially AMG owners may be more aggressive leading to non-scrubbing related wear?

Agree completely on this, I would still expect the rears to wear more than the fronts? I have driven BMW for the last 15 years and this is my first 4WD car so I am unsure what to expect tyre wise. I have never chewed through a set of tyres before 15000 miles despite some spirited driving!

 

[DRIVER200]

Agree completely on this, I would still expect the rears to wear more than the fronts? I have driven BMW for the last 15 years and this is my first 4WD car so I am unsure what to expect tyre wise. I have never chewed through a set of tyres before 15000 miles despite some spirited driving!

Richtw: Sorry what model do you have as your sig has BMW? Also have you had a word with your dealer about this?

 

[DRIVER200]

I would suggest to provide them every opportunity to fix and investigate the problem. When it comes down to rejection, and if they fight it, any adjudicator will look favourably upon you having cooperated and provided every opportunity get it it fixed. So yes, in my opinion and I know how annoying and time consuming and wast of time it is, go with the motions, and provide them the vehicle whenever they want.



I was ready to buy a set and sort out the bill with Mercedes later as we had a family outing planned and I can't go on on my summer tyres. It has to be said, I would not have bought the wheels/tyres from Mercedes as the cost is just plain ridiculous. But our plans changed, my wife really doesn't want to drive this car anywhere. And we just use my 4wd Golf R and leave the AMG on the drive way. As such I'm not spending £1,800 of my own hard earned money on a set of ugly after market small wheels with tyres on my Mercedes-AMG.

I've also challenged my retailer to demonstrate it to me, and to lend me a pair. But the not so funny joke is that they don't have any and can't supply any if they wanted to.

I think in your position as you have played by MB's rules so far I would ask your dealer to confirm -in writing if possible- what they are prepared to do if the clunking/juddering issues do not subside when warmer weather arrives as the core of their response is consistently to tell customers that they need to fit winter tyres. It really is a ridiculous situation do MB really think that owners will run out of steam after a week in Benidorm if this issue doesn't subside during that long weekend we have here called summer?

 

[dejongj]

I think in your position as you have played by MB's rules so far I would ask your dealer to confirm -in writing if possible- what they are prepared to do if the clunking/juddering issues do not subside when warmer weather arrives as the core of their response is consistently to tell customers that they need to fit winter tyres. It really is a ridiculous situation do MB really think that owners will run out of steam after a week in Benidorm if this issue doesn't subside during that long weekend we have here called summer?

Yes indeed - they seem to be working on getting me out of this model and into something else. I can't help but wonder because I don't keep quiet

And to bring it back into context, I just noticed this personal message from a C43 owner to the CEO on the website.
https://www.mercedescrabbing.org/2017/02/16/mick-beard/

That just highlights how this is a real issue affecting real people in their everyday lives.

 

[dejongj]

Yes indeed - they seem to be working on getting me out of this model and into something else. I can't help but wonder because I don't keep quiet

And to bring it back into context, I just noticed this personal message from a C43 owner to the CEO on the website.
https://www.mercedescrabbing.org/2017/02/16/mick-beard/

That just highlights how this is a real issue affecting real people in their everyday lives.

Or the story of Rehan.

https://www.mercedescrabbing.org/2017/02/16/rehan-siddiqui/

How can Mercedes just ignore us owners.

 

[DRIVER200]

Yes indeed - they seem to be working on getting me out of this model and into something else. I can't help but wonder because I don't keep quiet

And to bring it back into context, I just noticed this personal message from a C43 owner to the CEO on the website.
https://www.mercedescrabbing.org/2017/02/16/mick-beard/

That just highlights how this is a real issue affecting real people in their everyday lives.

Out of interest -putting yourself in MB's CEO's Gucci loafers- what would you do? For me it probably wouldn't take too much to get a team of MB engineers to find what the problem is. So what's holding him up? For me -at the moment- I like the car and hope this issue doesn't lead to me changing my mind should it become significantly worse; however when you consider other car manufacturers that have this problem I wonder if it will ever be addressed completely to every owners' satisfaction as clearly the Ackerman principle does have a role to play at some point. Having said that its the cluncking that owners are experiencing that really confuses me and its the one thing that I am keeping my eye on going forward because I hope that a low level of crabbing will not lead to significant tyre/component problems in the future....... fingers crossed gesture.

 

[dejongj]

Out of interest -putting yourself in MB's CEO's Gucci loafers- what would you do? For me it probably wouldn't take too much to get a team of MB engineers to find what the problem is. So what's holding him up?

Exactly - Incident management should be part and parcel of any organisation. I would setup a central record on Xentry/TIPS whatever they us. Instruct dealers to link all reported events to the same item. They should get a sense of scale, and variation very quickly. Much more so than what we can establish on the little website as most people just aren't online.

Then I would also escalate and raise this to corporate, do the proper verifications with other market vehicles. Investigate the design and any variances compared to left hand drive models.

I would also instigate direct communication to affected customers. Acknowledging that they are working on it. Outlining the steps that are being undertaken. And maintain that on a weekly basis with updates.

I would also at the very least ensure that those whose health are at risk are either put in a temporary loan vehicle, or immediately given the work around of winter tyres (if that truly cures it), until a fix has been found.

And discuss the options of that for those whose health isn't affected, and agree on an individual basis what they would want in the interim.

It really doesn't have to be this hard to manage it whilst maintaining peoples faith in the brand. We are all reasonable, and understand issues can happen. How they are being fixed is what matters. And in my opinion the arrogance of Mercedes and their retailers are turning this into a much bigger and published issue that it had to be.

 

[DRIVER200]

Exactly - Incident management should be part and parcel of any organisation. I would setup a central record on Xentry/TIPS whatever they us. Instruct dealers to link all reported events to the same item. They should get a sense of scale, and variation very quickly. Much more so than what we can establish on the little website as most people just aren't online.

Then I would also escalate and raise this to corporate, do the proper verifications with other market vehicles. Investigate the design and any variances compared to left hand drive models.

I would also instigate direct communication to affected customers. Acknowledging that they are working on it. Outlining the steps that are being undertaken. And maintain that on a weekly basis with updates.

I would also at the very least ensure that those whose health are at risk are either put in a temporary loan vehicle, or immediately given the work around of winter tyres (if that truly cures it), until a fix has been found.

And discuss the options of that for those whose health isn't affected, and agree on an individual basis what they would want in the interim.

It really doesn't have to be this hard to manage it whilst maintaining peoples faith in the brand. We are all reasonable, and understand issues can happen. How they are being fixed is what matters. And in my opinion the arrogance of Mercedes and their retailers are turning this into a much bigger and published issue that it had to be.

OK. Quick post before I go shopping for end of day bargains....... Does anyone actually think this issue/problem is fixable? If the answer is Yes, then that assumes Mr Ackerman has to be banished difficult if you are into your physics. But perhaps it could be reduced to a level that baby Ackerman can still be allowed to play during the winter but everything else becomes calm and sophisticated; pretty much the way a MB should be I guess.

 

[dejongj]

OK. Quick post before I go shopping for end of day bargains....... Does anyone actually think this issue/problem is fixable? If the answer is Yes, then that assumes Mr Ackerman has to be banished difficult if you are into your physics. But perhaps it could be reduced to a level that baby Ackerman can still be allowed to play during the winter but everything else becomes calm and sophisticated; pretty much the way a MB should be I guess.

Considering this is the first car I've owned that does it to that degree. I'd say it can be avoided absolutely. Mercedes themselves admit that as with confidence they say it is only for the GLC, C43 and E43. Which in my experience is agreeable.

Whether it can be fixed on these particular cars is indeed a slightly different question. I am really not qualified to answer that.

 

[Tony Mac]

If the answer is Yes, then that assumes Mr Ackerman has to be banished difficult if you are into your physics. But perhaps it could be reduced to a level that baby Ackerman can still be allowed to play during the winter but everything else becomes calm and sophisticated; pretty much the way a MB should be I guess.

People keep pointing us at the Ackerman theory and expect GLC owners to accept that there is a scientific reason for why this is happening - madness

Ackerman theory is simply the mathematics used to explain a specific driving fault that becomes evident when a vehicle has been incorrectly designed - this is a FAULT - the GLC range suffer with this FAULT!!

It's 2017, modern cars should not suffer from Ackerman behaviour - manufacturers understand the mathematics and design cars that do not crab, judder, bounce and knock. Especially luxury brands which are all about paying a premium for a high quality, smooth, comfortable drive - why we have purchased Mercedes Benz cars

The GLC 4Matic right-hand drive range of cars all suffer from the crabbing and juddering FAULT, that can be explained by Ackerman. But it's still a FAULT.

Left-hand drive GLC's do not suffer from the Ackerman fault, MB UK need to identify what the difference is between the two cars and FIX the FAULT!!

Sorry for this rant, but just because there's a mathematical explanation for this awful behaviour does not make it right and acceptable.

Tony

 

[DRIVER200]

People keep pointing us at the Ackerman theory and expect GLC owners to accept that there is a scientific reason for why this is happening - madness

Ackerman theory is simply the mathematics used to explain a specific driving fault that becomes evident when a vehicle has been incorrectly designed - this is a FAULT - the GLC range suffer with this FAULT!!

It's 2017, modern cars should not suffer from Ackerman behaviour - manufacturers understand the mathematics and design cars that do not crab, judder, bounce and knock. Especially luxury brands which are all about paying a premium for a high quality, smooth, comfortable drive - why we have purchased Mercedes Benz cars

The GLC 4Matic range of cars all suffer from the crabbing and juddering FAULT, that can be explained by Ackerman. But it's still a FAULT.

Sorry for this rant, but just because there's a mathematical explanation for this awful behaviour does not make it right and acceptable.

Tony

I would normally agree. But the Big but is that this phenomenon has been around for a long time and is/has affected major car brands eg Porsche who probably have some of the best engineers in the business working for them. So my thoughts are based on this really. I would certainly agree if MB were the only car manufacturer to have cars displaying this but they are not.

 

[dejongj]

I would normally agree. But the Big but is that this phenomenon has been around for a long time and is/has affected major car brands eg Porsche who probably have the best engineers in the business work for them. So my thoughts are based on this really. I would certainly agree if MB were the only car manufacturer to have cars displaying this but they are not.

I take your point, and design decisions and compromises are part of every day life. Take drift vehicles, they will take Ackerman out completely because of the need of the vehicle. I can also understand that for super sport vehicles it is more pronounced as the high speed stability it will bring may be seen as an increased benefit version comfort at manoeuvrability.

What we mustn't loose sight of is that these vehicles are ordinary family vehicles. They aren't specialist vehicles created for a specific purpose. They are 5 door family vehicles primarily with 4 cylinder Diesel engines.

There is no valid excuse to leave this in the design; ergo it is a design fault. But regardless of the technicalities between a fault, characteristic or whatever. It is not of 'satisfactory quality', it doesn't operate as described in the brochure or other literature,

As an owner I honestly don't care what label people want to put on it; ultimately it is not acceptable.

 

[DRIVER200]

I take your point, and design decisions and compromises are part of every day life. Take drift vehicles, they will take Ackerman out completely because of the need of the vehicle. I can also understand that for super sport vehicles it is more pronounced as the high speed stability it will bring may be seen as an increased benefit version comfort at manoeuvrability.

What we mustn't loose sight of is that these vehicles are ordinary family vehicles. They aren't specialist vehicles created for a specific purpose. They are 5 door family vehicles primarily with 4 cylinder Diesel engines.

There is no valid excuse to leave this in the design; ergo it is a design fault. But regardless of the technicalities between a fault, characteristic or whatever. It is not of 'satisfactory quality', it doesn't operate as described in the brochure or other literature,

As an owner I honestly don't care what label people want to put on it; ultimately it is not acceptable.

No argument with that But I guess we should not loose site of the fact that cluncking/severe juddering is not 'Technically' crabbing. Its far, far worse and -for me- puts this into a more serious category. Incidentally were did the statement that MB would be announcing something by the end of this week come from re this issue?

 

[HumberMart]

I would certainly agree if MB were the only car manufacturer to have cars displaying this but they are not.

Maybe all the RHD GLC's are fake Chinese copies then???

The proper LHD ones built by MB themselves must benefit from better R&D, engineering, and more accurate set up, so that they don't suffer this FAULT.

 

[dejongj]

No argument with that But I guess we should not loose site of the fact that cluncking/severe juddering is not 'Technically' crabbing. Its far, far worse and -for me- puts this into a more serious category. Incidentally were did the statement that MB would be announcing something by the end of this week come from re this issue?

It was from a member with display name JBD, self declared as a Mercedes-Benz Salesman from Norfolk. He or She shared a memo in which it was stated that those who already taken delivery of a car and have expressed a concern will get an update by 17th February 2017.

 

[Tony Mac]

People keep pointing us at the Ackerman theory and expect GLC owners ...

I would normally agree. But the Big but is that this phenomenon has been around for a long time and is/has affected major car brands eg Porsche who probably have some of the best engineers in the business working for them. So my thoughts are based on this really. I would certainly agree if MB were the only car manufacturer to have cars displaying this but they are not.

There you go - Blaming the FAULT on some Maths = Point proven

No, no, no - it's a car with 4 wheels, it's a family car for carrying friends and family, we didn't go into the dealers and ask if the car suffers from the Ackerman effect. In all the years of buying cars I've never had a conversation about the Ackerman theory, and I guess you haven't either ( wondering if you might be an MB salesman )

These GLC's are mostly 170 / 200 bhp family cars that should drive sensibly and normally. The Porsche issue is different - it's tyre skipping when pulling away under power. Porsche customers live with compromise as they want high speed stability from their performance cars.

10's of Millions or cars - most with 4 wheels - drive perfectly smoothly and DO NOT suffer from Ackerman, even though they potentially could as they have 4 wheels. The manufacturers design to minimize or eliminate it.

Please stop defending what is obviously a FAULT - MB UK have actually admitted as much but don't appear to be prepared to fix it.

Tony