C36 On E-Bay - My old car has lost 60,000 Miles

[SimonsMerc]

What really gets on my **** is if someone is cheated by a fraudster like this, who acts with impunity because he knows that the police won't chase him, they can't even give him a taste of his own medicine. If you turn up as a group to the dealer demanding that they put things right, they call the police and say that you are intimidating them, and you are the ones who have to explain yourselves to the police. And yes the police will turn up to protect them, and yes they will take you and your friends down to the station and threaten to file charges. EVEN WHEN PRESENTED WITH THE BLOODY EVIDENCE OF THE FRAUD IN BLACK AND WHITE.

[Other text removed]

-simon

 

[fatherpierre]

You say you are a serving police officer. Do you need the permission from your line manager to post on this public forum with views and opinions the public might think reflect the policy of your force?

The reason I ask is that many Police forces forbid serving officers to write to the media where they identify themselves as police officers or on subjects relevant to police matters without prior permission.

I am finding more and more postings on public forums from so called "police officers", some that lack tact in the way that they are put, and place the police in a less than flattering light.

Dortset police even tell officers how to talk when dealing with the media, not using police talk, and banning such words as "proceeding" and using "going", using "man" and not "male" etc.

Most police forces, and I would hope all, are very sensitive to public opinion. For this reason they do not like police officers writing things that might be unapproved and not sanctioned.

If I were your manager I would certainly not give permission for you to post here. But then I'm not your line manager.

Indeed you're not.

I don't need premission as I am not giving away secrets or revealing anything that isn't already common knowledge and never would, anyway.

Thankfully, this country is relatively free in terms of expression and we are free to say what we feel (to a point). If I was using my name, rank and number and claiming to represent the police in what I was saying then it would be a different matter. Have a look on the 5 0 website and you'll see some major threads on there from serving officers who would probably be disciplined or even required to resign if the powers that be were able to identify them! It sounds like Dorset Police have more time on their hands if they are trying to 'tell' you what to say to people without allowing officers to use their common sense.

Anyway, let's hope the clocker gets what's coming to him as this probably won't be a one off.

 

[fatherpierre]

Probably not, but they should have, and could have, if this once-great nation decided to get it's priorities right.

Thing is - do you think it's realistic to believe that this is the first, last and only time this guy will deceive members of the public? I'll wager he's done it many times before, and will do it many times again - all because he can, as no organisation has the resources/inclination/remit/etc (delete as applicable) to stop him!!

If he'll clock a car, would he have any pang of consciousnous that might stop them falsely declaring their income and evading tax? Maybe inappropriate benefits claims, etc.

If he'll clock a car, do you think it's realistic to believe that they wouldn't sell a stolen car or ringer? Maybe even a shoddy and unsafe damaged repaired car? Maybe an easy way into stealing cars themselves? Maybe other crimes, or something more sinister?

I'm conscious that we have several serving police officers, including FatherPierre - who's experience, views and opinions I respect greatly. In comparrison all I've done is watch a few police-chase video shows with Jamie Theakston doing a voice over*, but I recall it being mentioned on more than one occasion that if someone is unlawful in one respect, it's likely that they will be in others. For example - no tax, means a relatively high likelihood of no insurance, maybe invalid licence, etc, etc.

Could the same principle be applied to clocking cars?

* I'm not so keen on Alasdair Stewart and Sheriff John Burnell - both incredibley irrating!! :evil:

People like the clocker probably makes a nice living out of fleecing people of their cash, making them think they've bought a low miler at a bargain. The car trade is awash with people like this. This is one of the reasons why the MOT system has been tightened, but there is always a way around any system and alway enough people wiling to cut corners to make an easy £££.

I suppose it's human nature to take risks, with some prepared to go further than others.

I recall a few years back the MOT fraudster who shot dead one (maybe 2) trading standards officers who were onto him. Murder over a few dodgy MOTs

 

[andy_k]

I recall a few years back the MOT fraudster who shot dead one (maybe 2) trading standards officers who were onto him. Murder over a few dodgy MOTs

I suppose that this was a crime that went uninvestigated as well.

After all the victims were dead and therefore couldn't report the crime - as we have already learned unless you are the victim the police aren't interested.

Dress it up how you like if a crime of any type is reported to the police then they are duty bound to take responsibility for it. Whether they decide to investigate, ignore it, report it to trading standads etc it it their job to make sure justice is done.

The general public who get pushed from pillar to post in cases like this do not get paid for upholding the law so why should they be expected to give up half their day making phone calls when just down the road there is a police station full of people who are paid a pretty good salary to do exactly this.

Andy

 

[andy_k]

as an addition to the above post

The police have handed over many of their traditional responsibilities to "civillians". we don't see coppers walking the beat we see Town Centre patrols, no traffic wardens or policing of parking we get private parking enforcement, on the motorways we see traffic violations being reported by cameras and private organisations etc etc etc. Perhaps the logical progression is that they hand over investigating crimes to anyone who is vaguely interested on that particular day whilst they get on with the important things like drinking tea and filling in forms.

Andy

 

[nick mercedes]

I understand what your saying and it MIGHT indeed be the case. Read my earlier comments. However it might also be the very tip of a very major ringing organisation.

It's just been clocked, not rung.

Presumably the thought of a high milage car with no history to show the high miles was too tempting for someone...

You could argue that now the owner of the car has it's history it will be worth more as a car with highish miles but fsh than a lowish milage one with no history at all.

So much for digital dashes ending the problem of clocking...

 

[Apial]

Glojo,

This case is certainly one for trading standards. Try this link http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/News/NewsArchive2006/01January/CarClockingCourtCase.htm .

You would not report a murder to Trading Standards and expect them to investigate it, no more than a breach of trading laws would be investigated by the police.

These days the police do not even manage to investigate all the things that they should be investigating, so anything that is in the domain of another government agency is likely to be passed over to them.

I would really like to know why crimes to property are not/rarely/less commonly investigated. Is it a change in morality or an organisational problem? Its not so many years ago that sheep stealing would have got you sent to Australia or hung. 60000 miles worth of clocking must surely be worth a small flock!

Whats going on in society when a parking ticket is far more serious than shop lifting?

 

[glojo]

It's just been clocked, not rung.
...

Hi Nick,
You are unwittingly highlighting all our points in spades.

Rees_A's example might not have been a 'ringer', BUT.... When Joe Bloggs goes into the police station to make the initial complaint about the illegal activity, nobody, not you, not me, and certainly not the enquiry clerk knows the history of the vehicle.

Not once has Rees told us the police asked for his vehicle registration number? A simple question that could in its very self open up a whole can of worms, crimes etc.

If the registration number came back with 'owned by a wanted killer of multiple children' then we would all be screaming from the rafters. The police failed to make even the most basic of inquiries. "Go away, it's a trading standards issue!" Even that remark was not offered.

People like the clocker probably makes a nice living out of fleecing people of their cash, making them think they've bought a low miler at a bargain. ...

People that make a living out of illegal activities are professional criminals.

Why are we condoning this?

To all our serving police officers.

How would you react if you bought a car for top dollar and days later found out 100,000 miles had disappeared from the odometer?

Answer that question honestly. "Oh it's okay it's not really a crime........"

That answer would really amaze me.

Regards,
John

 

[glojo]

Glojo,

This case is certainly one for trading standards. Try this link http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/News/NewsArchive2006/01January/CarClockingCourtCase.htm .

You would not report a murder to Trading Standards and expect them to investigate it, no more than a breach of trading laws would be investigated by the police.

Nice link with a happy ending. I am aware of similar cases where trading standards got in way beyond their depth and then asked for police specialist help, but the case still collapsed.

'Simple, straight forward clocking' might indeed be the domain of trading standards, but like I have just stated, how do you know what is a straight forward clocking when you don't even ask the most basic of questions?

The easy option is to 'cuff' anything and everything, the harder option is to listen, inquire and then decide. I am NOT saying this was NOT a simple trading standards issue. In fact I was one of the first to suggest it.

I am simply digging my heels in on this apparent, acceptable, lowering of standards where a complaint is not investigated in even the very basic of levels.

Regards,
John

 

[Howard]

....whilst they get on with the important things like drinking tea and filling in forms.

Andy

I though we were talking about police officers , not us lock keepers

 

[BonzoDog]

Glojo,

This case is certainly one for trading standards. Try this link http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/News/NewsArchive2006/01January/CarClockingCourtCase.htm .

These days the police do not even manage to investigate all the things that they should be investigating, so anything that is in the domain of another government agency is likely to be passed over to them.

I would really like to know why crimes to property are not/rarely/less commonly investigated. Is it a change in morality or an organisational problem? Its not so many years ago that sheep stealing would have got you sent to Australia or hung. 60000 miles worth of clocking must surely be worth a small flock!

Whats going on in society when a parking ticket is far more serious than shop lifting?

Because we are living in the 21st century and not the nineteen fifties. Times have changed and as all our jobs and lives have changed, so has society and the way that we police it.
How many people on this forum are continually whingeing on about taxes and so on. It would cost an enormous amount more for the sort of policng which some sre discussing plus there would be further complaints from others about Civil Liberties.
It is I think well established that people committing even minor crimes are the most likely to be implicated in other crimes.
But come on. I used to get bored with Esther Rantzen bringing on another gullible victim who had been fleeced on some scam or other when they should have opened their eyes. No matter what you do there will continue to be perpetrators of these crimes and there will be victims - it's a bit like the oldest profession. On the other hand we could have a repressive totalitarian society and that would make sure that this type of activity doesn't go on.
It's a case of education and common sense.
It is a bit like watching Disney films, after a while you hope the bad guy is finally going to get the insufferably nice people and shut them, and their nice decent ways, up (excuse the grammatical errors). In the same way on Esther Rantzen, after a while of seeing stupid mutts taken to the cleaners yet again, I began to cheer for the crooks. If a deal looks too good, you can be sure of one thing.
I feel better after that.

 

[Shude]

In the same way on Esther Rantzen, after a while of seeing stupid mutts taken to the cleaners yet again, I began to cheer for the crooks. If a deal looks too good, you can be sure of one thing.
I feel better after that.

If you hear the watchdog theme (in the opening credits of which the "bad guy" is in a black W140 s-class!) then quickly grab the remote and channel-surf to something else! I find myself sitting on the edge of my seat, shouting at the fools they highlight on the show that were suckered into various scams etc. It's worse than Kilroy! (Hey, I was a student once so I had an excuse to watch daytime TV ).

 

[Apial]

.
It is a bit like watching Disney films, after a while you hope the bad guy is finally going to get the insufferably nice people and shut them, and their nice decent ways, up (excuse the grammatical errors). In the same way on Esther Rantzen, after a while of seeing stupid mutts taken to the cleaners yet again, I began to cheer for the crooks. If a deal looks too good, you can be sure of one thing.
I feel better after that.

Can you put me in contact with any good therapists?



In this modern society is it right that to get the death of my brother-in-law investigated I should be forced to have to go to my local MP to get the local police station to get up from filling important forms etc to investigate and put together a court case to prosecute?

There is something fundamentally wrong with the polices role in society. I sometimes wonder if the police went on a secret holiday for a month if anyone would notice? They could attend the RTAs etc, but for all non-urgent cases they could just send out a templated letter saying something along the lines of "We have investigated the matter reported to us, and on reviewing the evidence , we have decided not to proceed further as it would not be in the public interest."

In fact that is what some forces already are doing. But why? The reason is simple. There are not enough Police. There are too many forms to fill. The chances of a succesful prosecution are very low. Crime snowballs and in some areas it is out of control. Witness the burnt out Police cars in the evening newspaper.

Shoplifters laugh at me when I tell them I have cctv and I know where they live, because they know one of the "decided not to proceed" letters will shortly be arriving in my postbox.

When the town CCTV system was installed we stopped having a regular police patrol. The only time we see the police now is when they come into town to get a take-away. They did go through a phase of leaving a parked empty patrol car in the main street just for show, but they have stopped doing that too. If there is an incident you can bet that it will not be on cctv.

Last year my shop was the victim of 2 armed robberies, guns and knives. The last lot didn't get anything because the assistant slammed the till drawer shut on their fingers. And you know what? When I watched my non-Disney video of the attack I cheered when the bad guys got their just deserts. That made me feel a whole lot better.

One of my staff has been off for 6 months suffering with the trauma of the gun attack. Do you think a good Disney video will fix them?

Fortunately the robber handed themselves in after 3 weeks, but the others are still out there. And they will be back.

This is 2007 and this is the reality. I just hope I don't get a knife stuck in me.
Perhaps it would be more cost effective for the police if I just closed down?

Oh and if you are wondering about my Brother-in-Law, a man was charged for causing death through dangerous driving, found guilty, and sentenced to 18 months in prison. My Brother -in-Law leaves a wife and 3 young children to bring up. The sentence is of little comfort.

His death should have been avoided. The guilty driver already had lots of points on his license and 3 months earlier had allegedly passed the points on from a speed camera offence to someone else to avoid a ban. This was never investigated by the police. Reliance on speed cameras alone will not solve bad driving. More police are needed.

After reading this you probably know what chances there are of a succesful prosecution for car clocking. Chill out, make yourself a cup of tea and watch the Wacky Races. ****(Charles!) Dastardly always gets his just deserts.


This Government is to blame. They have taken away police funding. It is a matter of political priorities. You voted for them, so the next time round you should ask your candidate just what exactly they are going to do about improving policing in your area. I certainly will be doing.

 

[BonzoDog]

Apial I am sorry about your brother in law and I did not mean to in any way diminish the effect of real crime, its spread and the blight it has on society.
The police are as ham strung as anybody else these days. The big copper who used to live near us and who would give youngsters a clip around the ear and who had enormous respect, would now be on a charge.
I think we are all frustrated at our inability to deal with some of the appaling behaviour that goes on and our inability to either respond or to make the perpetartors in any way take repsonsibility for their actions but I do not think that you can blame the police or the government. Society throughout the world faces this problem. The problem for the victim is that too often he is not only treated worse than the criminal, he is also made to feel guilty. We as a whole need to find an answer to these problems.
The police do have to do a lot of form filling, some of it is bureaucracy but I suspect a large part of it is also computer based and a necessity to feed modern crime detection methods.
There is also, for want of a better word, 'scam' crime. Yes, I did once fall for a scam but it was all my own stupid fault. The ten pounds it cost me taught me a valuable lesson. In general though I have little sympathy with scam crime victims as it is, as I said previously, their own stupidity or greed and the law does not go out to protect you against either.

 

[Spinal]

Society throughout the world faces this problem. The problem for the victim is that too often he is not only treated worse than the criminal, he is also made to feel guilty. We as a whole need to find an answer to these problems.
The police do have to do a lot of form filling, some of it is bureaucracy but I suspect a large part of it is also computer based and a necessity to feed modern crime detection methods.

Ever been to Rome? I can assure you, in Italy, we do not go light on form filling... just to write a parking ticket 3 forms are filled out... Yet you will still see two cops at almost every street corner day and night... (whether they are just chatting, chilling or actually keeping an eye out is a different issue altogether - but they are there).

Strangely enough, Italy is fairly low on the crime-list, while London (or was that England? can't rememer) is constantly in the top 3 (globally)...

There must be a corelation between the lack of cops, the overly "big brother" camera attitude and crime rates... Italy seems to do the opposite (lots of police, very few cameras) and crime rates seem to be very low by comparison...

Michele

EDIT: Viva l'Italia!

 

[BonzoDog]

Ever been to Rome? I can assure you, in Italy, we do not go light on form filling... just to write a parking ticket 3 forms are filled out... Yet you will still see two cops at almost every street corner day and night... (whether they are just chatting, chilling or actually keeping an eye out is a different issue altogether - but they are there).

Strangely enough, Italy is fairly low on the crime-list, while London (or was that England? can't rememer) is constantly in the top 3 (globally)...

There must be a corelation between the lack of cops, the overly "big brother" camera attitude and crime rates... Italy seems to do the opposite (lots of police, very few cameras) and crime rates seem to be very low by comparison...

Michele

EDIT: Viva l'Italia!

Yes, many times. My German wife studied in Italy and then taught at Florence University for 16 years. We still have many friends there and vist often, even getting as far as Rome sometimes. Have to agree that one has a great feeling of being safe in Italy. Is it just the police though or is it that Italian society is still heavily rooted in the family? Maybe that is the key. I was brought up in Manchester in an area that I have subsequently seen featured in police programs. In my day there was complete safety on the streets because life was family based and you would be in real trouble if you did something wrong.
By the way note that we are not Tuscany phobes. We like the area but it is too overrun with Brits trying to buy into this gushing Tuscany keraap.
My wife has many stories about the form filling and need to visit Post offices in Italy in order to spend all day getting nothing done.

 

[Sir Humphrey]

Most foreign police

carry sidearms, and can whistle up heavier artillery pretty d*mned quickly.
Might that have something to do with the way people behave when the police are about.
I saw a taxi drive over an Egyptain traffic cop's foot in Cairo. All that happened was the taxi driver yelled sorry out of the window, and the cop shook his fist at him as he nursed his foot. He had a gun as well.

Perhaps it's not too much about the number of cops about, it's more about respect for the law, and that could well be where we are falling short as a nation. the police tend to be a sticking plaster for society, applied wherever it seems to be bleeding the most. The truth is, society is more to blame than the police who try to police it.
Not much solace for the law-abiding amongst us, but I know how I choose to behave, and how I'll bring my kids up.

 

[Spinal]

carry sidearms, and can whistle up heavier artillery pretty d*mned quickly.

and yet, how many times have you heard of a rogue police shooting accident in Italy or France? Last I heard was from the British police shooting some unarmed Brazilian guy with bullets which had been declared illegal...

Meh, this is going WAY off topic! Any more updates on the car/new owner/police/trading standards, etc? Why not introduce the new owner here?

 

[glojo]

and yet, how many times have you heard of a rogue police shooting accident in Italy or France? Last I heard was from the British police shooting some unarmed Brazilian guy with bullets which had been declared illegal...

I have no idea and I dread to think, but it will be down to how much information the press of each country is allowed to print.

I'm not familar with the ammunition used, can you give me an update please?

Yes it is going way off topic but PLEASE don't try to suggest this country is the only location where there have been police shootings of innocent members of the public.

Your a great bloke but those remarks are out of order.

Regards,
John

 

[sasha]

who needs the the daily mail when you have mbclub.co.uk...