E Class sounds system upgrade retro fit questions

[Stormbitch]

Hidden EQ ? NO Wayyyy?

I am in London sadly...

I like the AMP the amp is fine... and when I put the IPOD eq settings through... the speakers can actually sound different... which means the EQ is the issue not the amp...

I wonder what more 6.5 speakers might do on their own? Going to ring an expert right now...

hmm... he says speakers first. hmm

 

[timskemp]

Hidden EQ ? NO Wayyyy?

I am in London sadly...

I like the AMP the amp is fine... and when I put the IPOD eq settings through... the speakers can actually sound different... which means the EQ is the issue not the amp...

I wonder what more 6.5 speakers might do on their own? Going to ring an expert right now...

hmm... he says speakers first. hmm

The standard (non harman) speakers are lacking in detail from the upper mid and top. I gave mine more agressive EQ (hold down hangup, # and 1 on the front panel to get to the engineering menus, look for "eq" settings, be careful you can break your system) to fix it initially but they do run out of talent.

Changing them to Focals made a big big big difference. Adding a sub also (got a 10" rockford slimline as the boot is small enough already).

 

[ironsheik]

The standard (non harman) speakers are lacking in detail from the upper mid and top. I gave mine more agressive EQ (hold down hangup, # and 1 on the front panel to get to the engineering menus, look for "eq" settings, be careful you can break your system) to fix it initially but they do run out of talent.

Changing them to Focals made a big big big difference. Adding a sub also (got a 10" rockford slimline as the boot is small enough already).

thanks for this, might try it, but how can going into the engineering menus break your system? and what do you mean when you say run out of talent?

 

[timskemp]

I mean that there's only so much you can do with EQ, where there are weaknesses you can EQ parts of the spectrum out, but you can't put in what's not there in the first place!

 

[Stormbitch]

Wait a minute - your saying switch on command - on any screen and press Hash and 1 then scroll to e.q?

Is this in the users manual.. this seems too good to be true...

How do you take it out of this mode? And how did you know that?

--- I am defo gonna try this..

Hopefully I will be warranty covered.

Also got a meeting about some fronts too... They seem to have 1 x 6 and 1 x 3 in the door plus a tweeter in the corner panel higher, but the tweet 3 in the door is just a whole. You are correct - it may actually be solvable by looking at the EQ - you are right there is quite a muddy, plastic sound in some songs almost synthetic..

Last thing I want is to add fronts and end up spending 10k putting the sound back to a "balanced" state... you know the old days in the 80s you would **** with yoru speakers and end up with worse sound.

 

[timskemp]

Wait a minute - your saying switch on command - on any screen and press Hash and 1 then scroll to e.q?

Is this in the users manual.. this seems too good to be true...

How do you take it out of this mode? And how did you know that?

--- I am defo gonna try this..

Hopefully I will be warranty covered.

Also got a meeting about some fronts too... They seem to have 1 x 6 and 1 x 3 in the door plus a tweeter in the corner panel higher, but the tweet 3 in the door is just a whole. You are correct - it may actually be solvable by looking at the EQ - you are right there is quite a muddy, plastic sound in some songs almost synthetic..

Last thing I want is to add fronts and end up spending 10k putting the sound back to a "balanced" state... you know the old days in the 80s you would **** with yoru speakers and end up with worse sound.

I believe comand doesn't have the menu, only audio 10 / 20 has it (the EQ menu that is, the engineering menu is there in all of them).

Simplest trick would be some decent speakers for the front doors and an amp with high level inputs and a crossover, then hook a sub from the rear doors through another amp...

 

[Stormbitch]

OK so here is what me and the expert at Cheltenham Car Audio have decided upfront. Very expert guys on a par with Pier Huet in Brighton.

And boy am I ****ting myself with nerves.

We have opted to add a 10 inch sub to the rear of the car, fixed so that it doesn't donk about round corners or over bumps. Some dynamat in there. And a JX amplifier.

The amp will power the standard speakers with some more authority and also power the "sub bass"

I am spending about £580. Which in my mind is the same fee as I spent on a BMW - The Alpine system added an amp, some new fronts and tweeter and some EQ for about £370 plus fitting. I was suitably impressed as a person who uses his sound system once in a blue moon , but when I do, I like to cruise.

My theory is that the sub will "fool" my ears into feeling more bass, and thus the standard car e.q will cope mid and top enough to provide me with that HI FI type or at least ( manufacturer upgrade ) sound. Which in essence many of us want.

Granted I will still have the 320KPS issue but as I said, fooling my ears is all that I need.

If this works you can call these guys and replicate my system, if it doesn't we can discuss why.

As this is my pride and joy I am nervous about making it worse, but I am assured and pretty knowledgeable myself to note a sub can do a lot. Earlier in this thread I think one of you added a sub and was happy.

There is no lack of bass in the car right now. Certainly better than any other standard car, but its a messy dull wash of low frequency that also takes most of the EQ with it.

I will report back.

 

[timskemp]

Sub will make a big difference, and your installer should set the main channels of the amp to high pass, which will clean up the doors, but while it's in I'd get them front door speakers changed too!

 

[Stormbitch]

Hmm that starts knocking the numbers up a bit more. Like another £200 for speakers and another £150 for lab our!

I am so nervous... and so the note from you that a sub would make a nice diff helps. The car is already quite bass-y actually. I am hoping that the cross over in the amp will do as you say a good job.

The fronts yes but I am trying to keep costs right down. They also speak of disconnection of my wing mirror tweeters, I dont like the idea of disconnecting those.. I like to hear those high hats go from side to side.

They claim the high hat noise has nothing to do with location but I partially disagree or rather more hate the idea of disconnecting something in a Mercedes Benz you know.

 

[timskemp]

I got the Focals installed into the mirror housings, all looks factory! Not done a main channel amp yet though.

 

[Stormbitch]

I spoke to man at sextons in London who said that a client with a W212 had an amp alone which seemed to do the trick.

After the Cheltenham boys telling me how **** the speakers were I got all scared that I am making crap louder. But they seem to suggest that the 10 inch sub in the boot will add a new dynamic aswell as the JX amp - I am ****ting myself. Never had a sub before in a car.. The car is v well sound proofed as it is.. it already sounds bassy when you use LOUDNESS as your IPOD EQ - the last thing I want is more wollyness.

I have emailed the guys to tell them I still want to spend money with them but if they have doubts... now is the time to make it v clear...These cars are not cheap I m broke after buying it... just want a tiny more smile .. hoping my choice will be the right thing and I dont end up being mis sold and having to spend on 28 new speakers and amps to make it sound as good as it did in the first place..

Oddly today I spent the day listening to radio 4!

 

[st13phil]

I agree with Timskemp that the standard setup in the W204 (and to a slightly lesser extent in the W212) is lacking in detail in the upper mid and top frequency range. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that whoever decides on the voicing of the standard audio system is either a) deaf, or b) is under instruction to make it sound rubbish to encourage buyers to spec the HK option

Like Timskemp I tweaked the EQ on my W204 with reasonable effect and achieved a pleasing improvement in upper mid/top end performance for zero spend. I also reached the conclusion that replacing the speaker drivers was the only way I was going to improve matters any further but never got around to it before selling the car.

I listened to the standard system on the W212 and also the HK one and decided to spec the latter, but while it's a reasonable step up from the standard system I still wouldn't say it was that great. Personally, faced with a need to upgrade the standard system in a W212 my first port of call would be to upgrade the drivers in the front doors (including the tweeters by the mirror housings) and then take stock. If it gives you the improvement you want then great, it's job done. If not then add an amp and sub to give you more dynamic range and depth.

 

[Stormbitch]

Well. I thought that, but then got confused in the shop. They showed me some speakers 6 inch and told me that they would disconnect the wing mirror tweeters WHOOAAAAA don't go disconnecting anything in my 50k car if its there - someone has put it there for a reason.

Anyway they are scientific and said that tweeter location doesn't matter and that the tweeter sound can be anywhere and be heard. The only reason car manufacturers put tweeters behind the wing mirrors is because they have to cause they install **** speakers. ( if thats the case then why does Harmon Kardon and BMW Logic 7 and Alpine keep tweeters in this location )

NB As I left they were fitting tweeters high up on a car door and I asked, to which they responded well there are exceptions.

Don't get me wrong they are nice guys. I like them. And this guy I speak to I would love to cuddle but I got a bit lost in his paradigm of everything is **** unless you take your car to pieces.

Besides if a speaker is below your knee are you ****ing seriously telling me its better positioned than near your face - where you're ears are?

Surely then in nightclubs and cinemas why don't they put speakers in another room. Yes I know some do.

So as I was saying...

He showed me some JL speakers that were £300 and sounded **** and they wanted £150 to put them in..hello? Then some italian speakers which were better but still ****. I trusted him that they would sound better in the car.

So then I had a brain wave and said hang on... If I am spending £300 for two speakers you are disconnecting some ****, and I am paying £150 for some wire and fitting ( joke I know its more than that ) why don't I try and get more moneys worth.

He then said... OK you need a clean sweep, amp , sub , front speakers...£1200

BEFORE listening to the car.

So I said what if we had a SUB. Would that help the overall sound better - then power the existing speakers - at least then I would have a sub...

We agreed on £580 for sub, amp and wires fitted.

I dont really want a sub... I want sub, but I am nervous about having 12 year old's mobile disco in the back that I can't hear cause I only got a 10 inch.

Super confused.com

Ideally they would hold my hand and say.."look this will be the best option you will like it" I wrote an email to them to say I was worried and that now was the time to come back to me with doubts...No reply as yet.

I just felt as I left like I had disappointing them in some way..by having the bare minimum option.... and then in came the doubt... I wait with baited breath for a calming email response to say " We know how stressful it must be having take your brand new delivery mileage car apart and but that is why we are hear etc"


So my thoughts on your notes:

1/ Adding speakers without an amp is one cheap option. Not sure it will make much difference as the designers prob designed sound around OEM speaker.

2/ Adding fronts with an amp is an option, but disconnecting door tweets is not... W T F ....

3/ My idea above and hope a. I can here the sub through the boot b. that the amp puts my OEM speakers over its knee and sends them better signals.

4/ I go mad until I find someone who has done it already and go listen to his ****ing car.

 

[st13phil]

Anyway they are scientific and said that tweeter location doesn't matter and that the tweeter sound can be anywhere and be heard.

Do yourself a favour and find an installer that isn't full of BS. High frequencies (as produced by the tweeters) are highly directional and very easily "placed" by the human ear. By contrast, low frequencies can originate almost anywhere and not sound disjointed. Tweeter positioning is critical to the soundstage. Anyone who says otherwise is either an idiot or has an eye on emptying your wallet.

 

[Stormbitch]

Thanks PHIL that's is what I thought... but as he was so convinced I kind of thought well respect the man he does this every day... and probably reads trade press. I am looking for circumstantial evidence of this fact...

I was also told years ago I could NOT have a sub in the boot of my BMW 5 cause it would not be heard due to the way they are built... This now I learn to be false information to..However ... I also have a theory that sub frequencies are best in the same ****ing room as you surely....?

Would I not get better sub from a decent 6 inch component INSIDE the car somewhere?

 

[timskemp]

Do yourself a favour and find an installer that isn't full of BS. High frequencies (as produced by the tweeters) are highly directional and very easily "placed" by the human ear. By contrast, low frequencies can originate almost anywhere and not sound disjointed. Tweeter positioning is critical to the soundstage. Anyone who says otherwise is either an idiot or has an eye on emptying your wallet.

Phil

Bear in mind that in the nearfield confines of a car bass frequencies are directional. In car entertainment is very much compromised by never placing anyone in a proper stereo field - "Soundstage" as it's popularly termed barely applies to a 4 channel car audio system, and the horrific placement of so much lower midrange low down in the doors with tweeters up high causes terrible phase response across the audio spectrum.

Tweeter positioning in a car is more critical due to the absorbtion effects of high frequencies, it's good to have line-of-sight from tweeter to ear, but the problem it often induces then is having a much shorter path for one channel than for the other.

Time alignment has more psychoacoustic effect on positionality than level matching, and is often overlooked completely when trying to make a car sound better. I've not addressed this in my car at all, due to budgetary constraints but the best sounding systems to the non-technical ear are always the ones with correct time alignment, as regardless of level and frequency response extremes getting the midband time aligned makes for a natural sounding system.

It's always a juggle - one best sorted with a true four way system with the mid and high physically aligned and as far away from the listener as you can get away with, and the low mid drivers and subs electronically aligned back to the mids, and any fill speakers (rear doors normally) levelled out to be insignificant in the soundfield from the prime listening position...

Last car I did this in was my A class!

 

[Stormbitch]

**** you really do know your stuff!!!!! How many classes do you have are you doing the alphabet?

I am swaying toward the idea of components amped and a crossover so that I have
two 6 inch subs front
two 3 inch mid front
two door tweets
two rear full range fillers.

Alternatively

This has got to deliver almost like one of those door card options, and I can not worry about cutting the car .... "don't screw anything aaaahhhh"

In the BMW I had

2 under seat 5 inch drivers
2 door 4 inch drivers mid
2 tweeters
2 **** rear 4 inch fillers
and it sounded like I'd spent a grand.

The more you talk the more I am thinking, inside the car makes sense.

 

[st13phil]

Tim, I fully understand (and agree with) your comments regarding time alignment and absorption issues - not to mention the nearfield effects - affecting in-car audio. Frankly, I'm of the view that it's fundamentally impossible to get true audiophile quality in a car due to the many compromises that the environment imposes, so have always accepted something that sounds ok rather than chasing a very expensive rainbow. I do my serious listening at home!

My comment stands about the "quality" (or otherwise) of the installer that the OP's been talking to though. A good installer will work with the customer to understand what their real expectation level and budget are, and then suggest a suitable approach - possibly with a further upgrade path - rather than spouting dubious (or plain wrong) "facts" to justify their sale.

 

[Stormbitch]

I love it -

I have been having fun today - John Kleis quoted £150 labour to fit an amp and £195 labour to fit some front door speakers on the same day. Yes that's what I said £345 labour. That' THREE HUNDRED and FORTY FIVE POUND LABOUR

Another car centre, Sextons in London said.. Start with an amp alone as he did that with another E Class customer who was impressed.

Nottingham car centre say the same - change the amp and go for a PDX first.

Huets in Brighton, very well known. Say - Get a HELIX which is an amp and e q cleaner.

-

I like their honesty - but I also like the idea of replacing those door spaces with a 6 a 3 and a tweeter and an amp. I also like the harmon kardon 8 inch sub in the rear shelf idea.

-

But if you guys think the same - amp first - speakers next then that could be good place to start, say £250 for an amp?

In the meantime at £345 Lab our for something I do every day oh and I forgot £95 for some wires I am setting up a car install business.. Here is how I will do it.

1. Open a small shop with low rent
2. Put my mark up on all products say 45%
3. Charge £95 for cables that cost me £12.50
4. Pay someone £8 an hour to fit it and tell me tweeters need to be under the seat.

Looks like I can make a good £600 gross profit per customer.

 

[clk63dk]

hello..

Coming back to basic upgrades, one version could be to add a JBL MS8.
It features a good upgrade including Logic 7 and build in amplifiers for all channels needed (unless you want to upgrade even more).
Next would be to add the missing speakers(?) and replace the front system with a decent component system (I did use the Helix competition 6,5" system).
Adding a good subwoofer would make sense, again I too the Helix 12" enclosed subwoofer with build in digital DSP equipped amplifier (for small finetuning tricks).
Doors, trunck and floor were dynamatted.
Cost:
- JBL MS8 €650
- Helix speakers 190€
- Helix Subwoofer 290€
- Dynamat 100€

Installation - 2 weekends with a friend

Was it worth it - HE¤¤ YES!!

Comparing to the OEM Harman Kardon system, this is sounding soo much better, there is just more of everything + there is the control of the set-up that is in my hands.

// Chris.