E Class sounds system upgrade retro fit questions

[timskemp]

MS8 looks interesting, but did you investigate to see if your factory unit has the advanced EQ menu in the engineering setup?

If it does then I'd seriously look for some decent front speakers first, as the built in amp is surprisingly good. I went with focal...

Labour rates do vary, and with more competition from the net the margin on the equipment is lower so they are making more money on labour, plus the market isn't as large now as it used to be, so they aren't getting a quick 35 quid for swapping a DIN sized head unit...

 

[gIzzE]

Forget everything you have been told already from the dealers, it all sounds like **** advice, listen to the guys on here.
Start again.

I just fitted the Alpine system in our X1 yesterday after hearing loads of people rave about it.
I have previously done systems in our 2 previous 1 series and two previous E91 estates, using the Blaupunkt plug and play amps and just adding the L7/Harman tweeters, as well as Earthquake subs under the seats in the stock locations.
I have also done a system using an Audison 3 channel amp and morel components up front with the earthquakes again under the seats.

I can tell you now the Alpine is not great, fine for £300 and ease, took 1 hour to fit, but average at best and a little bright.


If I were you I would consider something like the Blaupunkt amp or maybe a Vibe Litebox, theses will take the signals from the front speakers and give it some proper drive. The W212 actually has some pretty alright sounding speakers, it is just lacking power.
Go out and sit in the car tonight and play it at a reasonable volume, then set the bass to around +2 and the treble to around the same, you have a pretty detailed sound that is warm and far from shrill. Only problem is as you start to move you need to crank the volume up and doing so starts to distort the system so harshness creeps in.
Add an amp so you have more control and you are there pretty much.

Adding a sub will only bring you lots of really low end bass, the stock speakers already go down to around 35hz which will cover 95% of music, maybe organ music might miss something, but it will cover all dance etc.

The Blaupunkt you can buy with a plug and play cable, this simply daisy chains between the factory stereo connector and the stereo itself, and runs to the boot, you than plug the amp in and you are away.

You can buy it in various configurations, 2 channel to just upgrade the fronts (all you really need) and 4 channel which will allow you to upgrade the rears as well (bit of overkill imho) and 5 channel with a dedicated sub out. OK but do you want a big sub taking up space?

I would consider a 2 channel version and just get the fronts rocking properly, if you feel you want to add more you could always change the speakers at a later date, but don't think you will feel the need to.
This will be far better than you had with the Alpine system I promise you.

There is a guy on the E90 forums selling the 2 channel with the Quadlock cable for £150 all in by the way.
That is a saving of around £100.

You can actually fit it under the carpet in the passenger footwell if you prefer.
But install is around 30-60 minutes.

 

[gIzzE]

Just one thing, I take it the NTG4 comand is standard Quadlock pinouts????

 

[timskemp]

Good post gizze, but I'll disagree about subs and the bass response of the stock speakers. The response is good, to about 60-70hz, below that they're lacking but the rears help.

Subwoofers properly tuned are conspicuous by their absence, yes you always have the option of hooooooge bass but correctly configured they can disappear, and Mussorgsky can be enjoyed in its full glory and kick drums can have the impact they deserve, additionally rolling the response of the main system down at the bottom end reduces the need for dynamat in the doors and lowers the power requirement of the main amp.

I'm running a single 10" slimline rockford, works really well but must get around to finishing the install....

Been looking at the Blaupunkt PnP amps, but quite fancy going to the new alpines - cabling can''t be //that// hard can it... (famous last words)

 

[gIzzE]

Good post gizze, but I'll disagree about subs and the bass response of the stock speakers. The response is good, to about 60-70hz, below that they're lacking but the rears help.

Subwoofers properly tuned are conspicuous by their absence, yes you always have the option of hooooooge bass but correctly configured they can disappear, and Mussorgsky can be enjoyed in its full glory and kick drums can have the impact they deserve, additionally rolling the response of the main system down at the bottom end reduces the need for dynamat in the doors and lowers the power requirement of the main amp.

I'm running a single 10" slimline rockford, works really well but must get around to finishing the install....

Been looking at the Blaupunkt PnP amps, but quite fancy going to the new alpines - cabling can''t be //that// hard can it... (famous last words)

Don't get me wrong I love my bass, and deep progressive house is my thing, but I do think that the W212 will go down pretty low, certainly lower than 60hz, we ran a test disc on a mates car and it went down to around 50hz before dropping off and you could hear 35hz just.
My point being that it may just be worth trying an amp first? As for many 45hz is respectable and as good as many compact floorstanders.



Using the Blaupunkt plug and play harness is a good idea with any amp, you get the Quadlock connector head unit end and this extends to the rear with two iso connectors on it, you can simply plug that into what you want then and you have not touched the oem wiring at all.

It is around £75 but can be had for £60ish.


I have not seen the new Alpines but have been seriously impressed with the Vibe Litebox range, Class GH, so much warmer sounding than Class D and run just as cool and even smaller.
Seriously good sound from such a good value amp.
They also sense the ic chip waking up in modern head units so turn on when you unlock the car, then go to sleep with the car too. No annoying pops like you get with using 12v switched or using the speaker signal to turn the amp on.
It is designed to go into these sort of cars where you keep the oem head unit.

It may also be worth considering the Focal 6.5" subs and putting them in the back doors, they will do 35hz properly, you could then use a 4 channel amp and just crossover the fronts at 60ish and let them do the rest.
Would stay looking completely oem then.


Have you ever seen the Aliante subs?
They do a 10si and a 12si, I had the 10si in my last car in a tiny .6 cu ft enclosure and it was just amazing. It is around 3" deep at most and so musical!
Really good bit of kit.

 

[timskemp]

Had a vibe sub in the W211, vibe kit is very much overlooked by installers due to the low price and the "also available in Halfords" factor. The litebox amps have also caught my eye but budget is an issue for a while (just had Nav 20 fitted to the car to get iPod and USB mainly)

Sound quality is always the goal in my own cars, not thought about the Focal 6.5 bass speakers for the back before, in fact I'm not normally a Focal user (or Rockford for that matter!) so my W204 install is breaking new ground for me.

When some more cash comes my way ina few months I'll look at the PnP harness and see what amps are hot on the market then, between now and then I need to sort the sub mounting out.

 

[clk63dk]

Maybe I missed the point here.

But it is clear that if the target is only to play louder, the solution could be to install an amplifier like the Blaupunkt THA475 / THA555 PnP amplifiers (easy since it is PnP). Or an Alpine with some custom cables.

But if you want to improve the sound even changing speakers dosent guarantee the result. They play different than the OEM speakers, but they are generalist products not tailored for a MB.

IF you want to upgrade and improve you need a DSP - the JBL MS8 is great for this, and have build in amplifiers for all channels + pre-out for further upgrades. The SW tool gives YOU the chance to play around with EQ / DSP / Time alignment and even add the Logic 7 if you dosent have this.

ANY other solution will pr definition only bring a limited improvement - or rather a change to the OE system.

The principle of a PnP amplifier is great - just look at the new Helix PP50DSP - a wonderfull tool with a very competent DSP. I installed it in more cars now (VW Polo, Mini Cooper and BMW 3 series Coupe) - all with GREAT results - but only due to the DSP & EQ features.
And especially before I did the mini I checked out the Harman option and the Alpine - but in comparisson, sorry there is no comparisson to this set-up. At 1000£ (including component speakers and subwoofers) this is outstanding.

So my advice is that before you start the investments in good components like Focal or similar, define your target. Maybe it can be reached by a Vibe amplified Subwoofer (more punch in the OE sound), or maybe you need an amplifier + speakers (just louder). But you for sure need a DSP, since this is the single biggest upgrade you can do in terms of changing / improveing and creating your preferred sound.

Imagine that my OEM Harman Kardon system in the CLK underperform against my GF's mini with Helix at 1000£ in a way that is embarasing for Harman...

 

[Working my Merc]

Hey

I have a 2011 E350 saloon..

Lovely massive areas for component replacement.

Do you have any advice? Just for instance component replacement, amp, etc

BMW for instance have an ALPINE Upgrade which is a kit... it includes some tweeter upgrades and proper panels, replacement door fronts and under seat subs.

Surely there is a nice retro fit kit, harmon or apline or something

Rather than the whole 50 inch sub in boot and £80,000 show car upgrades...

Just want some nice clean improvements. Spend 1k max.

Alpine kit for BMW is £500 plus fitting, includes 2 6s 2 tweeters and nicely crossover ed amp.

Can you help?

Hell's teeth, that is one very expensive and new car you have there - is the sound system that bad that you are seriously looking to spend a thousand pounds on 'improving' it? If it is that bad then take it back! I am no sound expert or aficionado but my 2003 E class has a standard system which is fabulous.

 

[gIzzE]

I think the main bit people are missing is the fact the OP had the BMW Alpine Upgrade in his car previously and was happy with that level.
Simply adding a p'n'p amp to the W212 stock system will get him passed this level for around £250.

And I think it will sound as good as some of the other installers have suggested for silly money.

 

[clk63dk]

Exactly why the statement is - define your target.

And what is silly money for a car of this value? If you buy a premium car and "upgrade" it with less than premium components, is it then an upgrade???

I think that once you have decided you want to drive a MB you also decided you are no longer fooling around in a GTI or similar... . .

 

[timskemp]

Hell's teeth, that is one very expensive and new car you have there - is the sound system that bad that you are seriously looking to spend a thousand pounds on 'improving' it? If it is that bad then take it back! I am no sound expert or aficionado but my 2003 E class has a standard system which is fabulous.

I didn't upgrade speakers in my 03 either, but the facelift ones lost the rear deck subwoofer (unless specced with Harman) and the W212 doesn't have one either.

They also didn't seem to have the same quality of speakers in the standard kit, although that may have been due to losing the sub and the main speakers being relied on for more bass.

 

[gIzzE]

Exactly why the statement is - define your target.

And what is silly money for a car of this value? If you buy a premium car and "upgrade" it with less than premium components, is it then an upgrade???

I think that once you have decided you want to drive a MB you also decided you are no longer fooling around in a GTI or similar... . .

I agree with everything you said, but the recommendations from the installers seemed like a complete waste of money to me, and to be paying the figures they were asking to put in what they were recommending is 'silly money'.

The only installer who has come back with anything good is the one who said 'just put the Helix in to start with.'

Helix do a plug and play harness, so you could fit the amp and get it running in an hour and without touching any of the oem wiring.
You could then tweak away and see what you think.
Not enough bass? Then add a sub.

You could use a slim sub like the Aliante and mount it under your parcel shelf taking up no room at all, the shelf would just be 4" deeper.

 

[Working my Merc]

I didn't upgrade speakers in my 03 either, but the facelift ones lost the rear deck subwoofer (unless specced with Harman) and the W212 doesn't have one either.

They also didn't seem to have the same quality of speakers in the standard kit, although that may have been due to losing the sub and the main speakers being relied on for more bass.

I can't believe I was lucky with the spec for once:bannana: I normally buy the one that had just been down spec'd lol!!

 

[Mr Nicey]

I tried Focal and a few others and settled on Hertz ESl 3 Ways. and had dynamat fitted at the same time in my SL 320.

Sound Secure was the Installer i would reccomend. About £550 all in.

Very good sound but still a slightly sharp treble, although on CD's its briilaints so probably poor mp copies. All though everything is lossless

Head units a 60 Watt Alpine and the Merc Amp is bypassed, the imaging is amazing, its very 3 Dimensional.

 

[Stormbitch]

I agree with everything you said, but the recommendations from the installers seemed like a complete waste of money to me, and to be paying the figures they were asking to put in what they were recommending is 'silly money'.

The only installer who has come back with anything good is the one who said 'just put the Helix in to start with.'

Helix do a plug and play harness, so you could fit the amp and get it running in an hour and without touching any of the oem wiring.
You could then tweak away and see what you think.
Not enough bass? Then add a sub.

You could use a slim sub like the Aliante and mount it under your parcel shelf taking up no room at all, the shelf would just be 4" deeper.

Interesting.. this is Huets in Brighton. 25 years of no nonsense help no ripping you off service..long term they gain trust and thus revenue for not doing a reading and charging £550 for f-labour...

I am going tomorrow to "try" a couple of options... YES!!! That is what they offered... cant say they will do it for everyone but what a brilliant service.... they can have my money any day little or a lot for that level of customer service

You are right - but the Helix cannot let me upgrade if I am not happy... hence they have a special sub and another amp there too just incase.

HUETS CAR Audio, Brighton are reading this to see what you lot are saying too..

Although I haven't told the rip off company to check here. what a bunch of W...

Looking forward to an excuse to visit Brighton and speak to a F genuis... fingers crossed on the ideas they come up with as my stage 1 - "apline esq" upgrade.

For the BMW - the 4 tiny components and an amp idea was the best money I could ever have spent.... so you are right... to take it steady as there are systems out there for not silly money to start with. I only listen to music once in a blue moon but as I have been a Dj and producer for 20 years I kind of get annoyed with **** sound.

Next time I have a mate who needs upgrade a. I know where to send and b. with technology today you can still have an impressive..."ohhhh how much was this upgrade" sound for well well well under a grand easy... but we shall see.

My mate has the factory BMW business. ... which to be fair is "acceptable" - I beleive the Merc factory w212 eclass sound is already better due to the available size.

PS Re: Hertz... yes harsh treble is not good. twinkly treble is nice... Alpines BMW was harsh.. but again... for that money... turn it down a bit

So happy for your help so far.

 

[gIzzE]

Interesting.. this is Huets in Brighton. 25 years of no nonsense help no ripping you off service..long term they gain trust and thus revenue for not doing a reading and charging £550 for f-labour...

You are right - but the Helix cannot let me upgrade if I am not happy... hence they have a special sub and another amp there too just incase.

So it was Huets that suggested the Helix, I have heard good things about them and have liked some of the installs they have done, or rather I have seen some of them and liked the ones I have seen.

The Helix amp is a pretty good little amp, I don't think you would find it lacking anywhere, plus it does have a dedicated sub out so if you wanted to add a sub at a later date you could.

I have only heard the Helix in a 5 series, that was running Morel fronts, and SWS8 subs in the stock locations under the seat, it was pretty impressive.
It was all time aligned and the frquency was completely flat apart from an artifical hump around 50hz and a little dip around 3khz which helped warm thing up a a bit, the guy was still a vinyl and tube amp junkie so wanted a nice smooth sound. It worked well.

He was going to add a sub if needed, however he hasn't done and loves the system.




I don't get what you mean when you say the Helix will not let you upgrade?

 

[Stormbitch]

You know your stuff it seems.

Huet's were putting stereos in cars back in 1990 - Recall listening to Liberian Girl in a Renault 5 turbo - I was blown away with the install and final result.

Yes the Hertz is an option but Huet's reckon the out will limit the subwoofer choice -

Nervous but excited that Huets have 2 ideas.

1. Hertz

2. JL amp and sub

All running with factory speakers -

Glad some of you agree these are interesting start points.

 

[Stormbitch]

Mercedes E Class sound system / speaker upgrade W212 E350

Huet's Car audio in Brighton were my choice even though they are a 2.45 hour drive away.

1. Expertise
2. Attitude
3. 25 years family run
4. Friendly
5. Price
6. Their offer to try 3 items out whilst I waited !!!!!!!!!!!

I arrived 930 -

Test one -

Hertz Amplifier connected to Mercedes E Class speakers as suggested by team - cost £580 fitted.

Result - Don't opt for this, it sounded rubbish. UNLESS Hertz have brought out a software MAP downloadable for this kit. ( currently there is no map )


Test two -

JL XD400/4 Amplifier connected to Mercedes W212 speakers - Cost £370 - cheapest price £351 imported from US $350.

Result - Sounded very very very good. Like you had spent money upgrading it. Flat signal from the Mercedes Benz Comand was producing a full range of lovely HI-FI sound, clean, crisp and warm. A very impressive £370 bit of kit indeed.. (I haven't talked about fitting yet )

Test three -

Power front channel of Mercedes E Class in car speakers w212 with the above amp, power a 8 inch Sub with another channel. Disconnect temporarily Mercedes Benz E Class rear speakers.

The sub was placed on the back seat to be INSIDE the car.

My jaw was on the floor. As was Peter the owner of the business.

This was a JL-8 inch sub box - and my front speakers and a JLXD400/4 amp.

Result - waiting on a price but I went for trial 2 - ONLY because they did not have time to make me an install box.

The install would mean cutting a whole in the center behind the Mercedes E Class rear seat arm rest, and re beautifying it. And building a special box for a 10 inch JL sub to feed into the car, using the recess ( curve) in the Mercedes boot space to house the fitted box, covered with same interior carpet as the boot.

Costs

JLAMP
A device to stop a clunking noise ( which didn't stop the clunking noise )
Labour
VAT

£770

Now removing the VAT - and considering the car was being worked on from 10am till 5pm I think that was fair. He wanted to charge me £300 labour for the day, but then discounted £50 of labour as it was a shock, and also a learning curve for this new car.

--

Summary

- The man in Cheltenham was a lovely man, but lost business based on the following..

He suggested that an 8 inch sub would be heard from my boot. We tried that and fell about laughing. WRONG!!!!!

He did not want to listen to my car and claimed ALL OEM speakers are ****.

- Reading - seem to be passionate - but over charge vastly for a job that they do day in day out. Their prices are quite frankly offensive, you should call them and ask for a quote, just so you can laugh your head off.

- Brighton - were full of humility, smiles, with exception of one, jokes, fun, experience, debate, passion, flexibility. Huets were renowned in the 90s and early 2000s for being really expensive, in fact a London friend of mine called me and said.. "oh no, you took your car to Brighton, are you aware there are multiple technicians between Cheltenham and Brighton that won't rape you?" But I was not raped. I actually had a really enjoyable day.

I hope you will consider using them. And I will report back with prices and decisions based on my above option 3.

I have found you one solution to upgrade a Mercedes Sound System and if your car is not there all day you will pay £370 plus lab our not £770. ( **** that hurt, I paid for your education

And if you want the full flavour I will report back in due course if I decide to proceed with that route.

You have to be very careful who you let F with your brand new W212...

My mates - were blown away....So if you are not a sound moron like me... option 2 is all you need.

 

[gIzzE]

I said bolting an amp onto the OEM speakers would produce a nice detailed but warm sound.


The Helix amps are DSP amps, they need to be calibrated.

Have a look at this PDF...

Helix DSP set up Software Manual

However, I do think the route you went will certainly give you the best bang for buck.
You could consider fitting some 7" mid bass units in the rear doors at some point and let them be crossed over for bass, this would give you a little more low end if you felt the need.

 

[gIzzE]

Deleted. Double post.