Hybrids? waste of space.

[KillerHERTZ]

Not to mention all the chemicals used to create the batteries in these hybrids, the processes used to make them!

 

[Dieselman]

Basically ... Yes.

As the energy price goes up the amount of oil, gas, and coal that can be economically extracted and transported goes up.

Not necessarily so. For example people quote shale oil as a viable source once the price goes up enough. The problem isn't eh cost of extraction, it's that you use more energy to extract than you get back from the oil.

This applies to a lot of marginal reserves.

 

[Dryce]

Not necessarily so. For example people quote shale oil as a viable source once the price goes up enough. The problem isn't eh cost of extraction, it's that you use more energy to extract than you get back from the oil.

This applies to a lot of marginal reserves.

Shale oil is a good example because some some of the projections on usage assume that cost of production would drop as processes were refined. How much energy you require depends on what you want to extract. Some shales can be used directly in power stations. The problem for shale is that the commitment needed to make the reserves viable is dependent on a significant price shift either in shale production costs (down) or energy prices (up).

There are other reserves that have yet to be found. Higher energy prices means that explorarion strategies change. (Conversely a low energy price may mean that exploration is reduced).

This also isn't just about oil but coal. Energy prices have worked against coal so it tends to be forgotten. There's a lot of it about.

 

[bolide]

I suspect there would be more rational debate on, and support for, this topic if there was some leadership at governmental level

Taxing motorists (and others) who exist within the current system is cynical and self-defeating. Investing in a better, more efficient, public transport infrastructure and moving the majority of goods transport off the roads onto rail would be a good start. But then the government would have to invest and see the benefit over time - which won't happen whilst they need to get re-elected every few years

Incidentally, I have a guaranteed-effective cure for poor public transport. It would transform transport within this country within 5 years. It's simple: make all politicians travel on public transport at all times

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[marcos]

Hybrid cars actually make me puke, sounds a bit over the top but we are constantly being told of their advantages, low emissions etc, but no one mentions their disadvantages.

1 - They look silly, if anyone says a Prius looks good I will personally shoot them.
2 - As mentioned previously they are very ineficient, to recharge their batterys requires petrol, none of the claimed low fuel uses are actually feasible.
3 - Their "dust to dust" cost is significantly more than most other cars including most large 4x4's. You can find plenty of info on this on the internet but the main problem with these cars is that they use Cadmium cells. Cadmium mining is the most destructive type of mining known to man and completely destroys the surrounding area for many many years. Recycling cadmium is also very expensive and not at all efficient and yet we are told that a Toyota Prius is a nice "green" car and if we drive one round London we are exempt from paying the congestion charge.
Just because a load of hair brained actors in Hollywood drive them because they are too stupid to know any better does not mean it is any good, Ken Livingstone take note.

I have other issues with them like why do the drivers of such vehicles have to make a song and dance about the fact that they drive one and are saving the planet, of course they are not doing anything to help the planet but it makes them feel better.

I shall continue to drive my non-enviromentally freindly ML320 CDI that is now achieving 30mpg most of the time which is significantly better than a crappy Prius, around London for the simple reason that if Mr Ken Livingstone does ever step out in front of me I want to make sure my pedestrian un-safe 4x4 causes maximum damage to him.

Sorry My rant is now over.

 

[cjab98]

Stiffpetrol got it spot on:

 

[guydewdney]

Personally - im pro nuclear, and I run my tractor on 90% recycled veg oil... my pickup runs on dino diesel (28 mpg ) - and Im attaching a water wheel to a generator for my bit.

never been convinced by prius's (priusi?)...

 

[Dryce]

Hybrid cars actually make me puke, sounds a bit over the top but we are constantly being told of their advantages, low emissions etc, but no one mentions their disadvantages.

Actually I think hybrids make sense. If done properly. Consider the technology was banned in F1 a generation ago.

Problem with the Toyota and Honda approaches is that they're intended to make the owners feel good about themselves and offer tax/road charging benefits. I've always thought of the Prius as a bit of a turkey.

 

[recycled]

I've always thought of the Prius as a bit of a turkey.

That is because it is

 

[R2e]

I suspect there would be more rational debate on, and support for, this topic if there was some leadership at governmental level

Taxing motorists (and others) who exist within the current system is cynical and self-defeating. Investing in a better, more efficient, public transport infrastructure and moving the majority of goods transport off the roads onto rail would be a good start. But then the government would have to invest and see the benefit over time - which won't happen whilst they need to get re-elected every few years

Incidentally, I have a guaranteed-effective cure for poor public transport. It would transform transport within this country within 5 years. It's simple: make all politicians travel on public transport at all times

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

Why does everyone, including all the politicians talk about better, more efficient public transport? The truth is that much as that is needed, it is no solution, it can only ever work in big cities like London where the bulk of the populace work in the conurbation and therefore can utilise public transport. Sadly, life has changed over the decades since I was young and my Mum used to shop daily down the high street which was within easy walking distance, and most people worked within easy reach of a bus. That is no longer the case and what is required is some lateral thinking, not the usual platitudes.

Life has changed immeasurably, we now tend to be working further away from home, be more separated from our families, shop at out of town retail parks, do one or two food shopping runs a week, etc, etc, and have much busier lives. Very little of this can ever be catered for by public transport unless you are very lucky or live in a major city.

Getting long distance transport of goods onto rail would be an excellent idea, lorries are actually the biggest congester of our roads due to their slower speeds, size, and relative velocities when they overtake (on the M25 the other morning at around 5:30, crane in the inner lane, overtaken by lorries in the second lane, being overtaken by slightly faster lorries in the third lane, meaning all the car and van traffic moved into the outside lane causing a general slowdown to the speed of the slowest vehicle in the outside lane and considerable backing up. And all this on what was a fairly quiet motorway). Might it be worth allowing lorries to do 70mph?

I work away from home one, two or maybe three nights a week depending on the requirements of the client. It is not practical for me to travel by public transport, firstly carrying my suitcase and laptop, files, papers, etc, secondly most of the locations involve travel into London, cross London, travel out again, with bus or taxi journeys both ends and I cannot afford that sort of time or expense, it is entirely impractical. Similarly flying to UK and Europe (I make the assumption UK is not part of Europe!!) from anything other than Gatwick (we do have a rail link to Gatwick so it is possible depending on flight times) is also totally impractical. There is no way I can share transport for these requirements meaning public transport is out, the car is the only solution until someone can do a bit of, to use a phrase I hate, "out of the box" thinking and come up with an alternative or decide there isn't an alternative, and ask themselves what can we do to improve matters for this type of requirement.

 

[recycled]

Well buses in manchester have been studied and it has been found out by the BBC that since privatisation, the biggest cause of congestion in manchester city centre has been buses. They choose only the lucrative routes into the city centre (can't blame them) and leave other routes starved of services. Hence if you go to piccadilly in manchester ,you have 10-15 buses arriving at one bus stop together dropping 5-10 people each from a bus. Hence you have tailbacks all the way to oxford about 1 mile or two in some cases. three companies have now been banned fron operating in the centre as they only have old rickety buses.

 

[grober]

Are people not confusing 2 things here. Fuel economy and reduced emissions. The Toyota Prius sales are probably more related to the latter rather than the former. Their sales jumped when it emerged they were exempt from the LONDON CONGESTION CHARGE.

 

[BonzoDog]

Are people not confusing 2 things here. Fuel economy and reduced emissions. The Toyota Prius sales are probably more related to the latter rather than the former. Their sales jumped when it emerged they were exempt from the LONDON CONGESTION CHARGE.

I guess if they become too popular they too will attract the charge.

 

[Dryce]

Are people not confusing 2 things here. Fuel economy and reduced emissions.

The two are pretty much the same. Hybrid may move where the emissions occur and in principle if the engine runs within an optimal range while the electrics deal with the variation optimises the combusion process a bit more.

In practice the Toyota/Lexus solution is way too conservative and a cynic would suggest that it's a marketing solution aimed at the peculiaritise of the US market (where it makes no economic sense given fuel prices) and fashionability in the European market (where it makes no sense compared with existing products).

 

[Dryce]

Life has changed immeasurably, we now tend to be working further away from home, be more separated from our families, shop at out of town retail parks, do one or two food shopping runs a week, etc, etc, and have much busier lives. Very little of this can ever be catered for by public transport unless you are very lucky or live in a major city.

Sadly quite a lot of people don't even consider public transport where it is available. It's just too easy to jump in a car and go even when it possible costs more and is more hassle.

Same sometimes works the other way with some medium distance travel where the train might be first choice but a hire car with petrol and full insurance works out faster and cheaper end to end - even for one person.

 

[R2e]

Sadly quite a lot of people don't even consider public transport where it is available. It's just too easy to jump in a car and go even when it possible costs more and is more hassle.

Same sometimes works the other way with some medium distance travel where the train might be first choice but a hire car with petrol and full insurance works out faster and cheaper end to end - even for one person.

You're dead right. I have to admit, being self employed, I get paid on the hours I work, not on hours spent commuting, so the quickest is best for me. Ease don't enter into it, to coin a phrase. The costs are highly unlikely to offset what I earn per hour so no contest. Similarly it's more economic for me to pay someone to cut my grass or decorate my house while I spend that time earning more. It does give you a cockeyed view of things, I see holidays on what they cost me in lost earnings, not on what they cost, but you just have to bite the bullet and go for it or you'd never take a holiday. I reckon if I can get 48 earning weeks in a year, that's doing really well, and I always have Christmas to New Year off, so I have to be really ill before I'm ill enough to be off work. Workaholic? Probably, but not because I necessarily like to work (though I do have the best job in the world - for me!) more because I started late (don't ask) and am salting away my nuts like a good squirrel while the going is good.

I'm a global warming believer, but don't believe we caused it or can affect it, so I feel no pain. I'm sick to death of the bull***t on all this global warming, it's highly political and not scientific at all. Like the whole terrorist thing, it's used and over egged by politicians to control us as is their wont. I drive a diesel because I like the fuel bills and also because I like the driving characteristics of modern diesels but if I had the money I'd be blowing it on something more exotic!

 

[Dieselman]

I'm a global warming believer, but don't believe we caused it or can affect it, so I feel no pain.

I'm confused by this. If you believe in it how can you then say we didn't cause it or have any effect on it?

the global warming debate hinges around there being more Co2 in the atmosphere caused by burning fossil fuels.

 

[R2e]

I'm confused by this. If you believe in it how can you then say we didn't cause it or have any effect on it?

the global warming debate hinges around there being more Co2 in the atmosphere caused by burning fossil fuels.

Because it has happened many times in the past. Who says global warming is caused by more CO2 in the atmosphere caused by burning fossil fuels? A very political committe of the UN that's who. A lot of scientists are unhappy about the conclusions, watch C4's "The great global warming swindle" (I think it was called). It may have holes in it, but so do the other theories.

 

[guydewdney]

I'm confused by this. If you believe in it how can you then say we didn't cause it or have any effect on it?

the global warming debate hinges around there being more Co2 in the atmosphere caused by burning fossil fuels.

The total CO2 produced by cars is so tiny in the global sense as to be irrelevant. Yes, it contributes, but the billions of tons produced by algae etc far far outweighs the car amount.

Yes, we contribute. But a gnat contributes to the weight of an elephant....

And I consider myself to be quite 'green'. The other side to the argument is that we should simply just use less fuel - as its probably running out. Again - fuel is almost a by-product of crude oil. we should use less plastic, less bitumen etc.

So Im happy to have paper bags for my shopping (or re-useable ones) - pointless plastic packaging winds me up somthing chronic - and I dont know what to do about using less bitumen

Guy (doesnt drive a pious...)

 

[BonzoDog]

So Im happy to have paper bags for my shopping (or re-useable ones) - pointless plastic packaging winds me up somthing chronic - and I dont know what to do about using less bitumen

Guy (doesnt drive a pious...)

Less wheelies?