The EV fact thread

[Noitz]

... and an auto-box makes far more sense for the majority of day to day driving scenarios.

The obsession with manuals on a lot of car forums is similar to the obsession with ICE - it’s mainly people struggling to move forward admitting a machine beats a human in most scenarios.

Thankfully these are simply your opinions, not mine, and you're most welcome to them.

 

[philnewmerc]

Thankfully these are simply your opinions, not mine, and you're most welcome to them.

TL;DR
1920-1950: changing gear is a chore, top gear roll on rules in car reviews
1960-2000: changing gear is a joy apparently (for car nerds), dab of oppo, heel and toe, etc (I think most people think it's a chore but manuals are cheaper)
2000 onwards: cheap excellent autos make manuals look antiquated
2020 onwards: EVs are the ultimate 'top gear roll on' champions


I prefer auto (even the old 3 speed - which people mistakenly think means it missed 4th when in actual fact it missed 1st, which was not needed due to the TC), but I do enjoy a manual sporty machine (I'd hate an auto motorbike). But changing gear all day in a 6 speed manual is a total effing ball ache imho... 4 speed fine (4 speed with overdrive: chefs kiss)

Anyway, one think that occurs to me is that if you read motoring mags from the 1920s to the 1950s then even the sporty cars are judged on how well they behave in top gear - top gear acceleration, lowest speed in top, smoothness in top, etc. Presumably this was because changing gear in that era was a crunchy pain.

In the 1960s this begins to change (as synchromesh and quality improves and engines become less long stroke sloggers) and the 'joy' of changing gear, rev matching, etc, starts to be discussed.

Then we have the 2000s onwards when multispeed autos of either TC or DSG type have come about and, frankly, made manuals pointless. But going back to the 1930s, say, it is intriguing that people who bemoan EVs lack of engagement (changing gear etc) would not have done so back in the day, they would have been delighted.

Having said that, there is no reason (except technical/financial) why EVs should not have a (e.g.) 6 speed gearbox.

 

[JHS]

(Even if the fat middle-aged and pensioners buy them used - because they can't bend to get into C Class saloons any more)

I am a pensioner and have with a ruined back, and have no problem getting into and out of my mighty S205 C250d Premium Plus with illuminated door handles.
So I am officially offended by your post.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Announced yesterday that Vauxhall is moving forward with hydrogen fuel cell power for vans:

VAUXHALL PARTNERS WITH RYZE TO DEVELOP HYDROGEN CHARGING SOLUTIONS

Vauxhall has partnered with Ryze Hydrogen to develop hydrogen charging solutions for corporate customers Ryze Hydrogen is a UK company specialising in hydrogen distribution infrastructure Vauxhall’s new Vivaro HYDROGEN begins fleet evaluation trials in the UK in 2024 Next year, orders will...

www.media.stellantis.com

As mentioned this is the only current zero emissions technology that works for a large majority of commercial vehicle usage.

Hydrogen IS NOT zero emission in any way....making or using! Low.... but not zero.

 

[clk320x]

Edit

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I am a pensioner and have with a ruined back, and have no problem getting into and out of my mighty S205 C250d Premium Plus with illuminated door handles.
So I am officially offended by your post.

A pensioner, like myself, and I too have no problem slipping in and out of my modest, aged, MX5.

But we both know a lot of folk younger than us (i.e. in their 40's, 50's 60's) who've gone SUV because they can't get their stomachs into a ... real car... any more.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Having said that, there is no reason (except technical/financial) why EVs should not have a (e.g.) 6 speed gearbox.

Already in development by Toyota and Lexus.

Driven: Toyota's manual gearbox for electric cars | Autocar

New software-based system aims to offer more driver involvement. Is it more than a gimmick?

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

Hydrogen IS NOT zero emission in any way....making or using! Low.... but not zero.

In use a hydrogen fuel cell is zero emission in any normal/acceptable sense. The only thing that comes out of one is water (100% pure).

 

[BTB 500]

I am a pensioner and have with a ruined back, and have no problem getting into and out of my mighty S205 C250d Premium Plus with illuminated door handles.
So I am officially offended by your post.

I'm also a pensioner who copes fine with the mighty S205 ... and my lowly Premium-non-Plus doesn't even have illuminated door handles to aid the process!

 

[clk320x]

Already in development by Toyota and Lexus.

Driven: Toyota's manual gearbox for electric cars | Autocar

New software-based system aims to offer more driver involvement. Is it more than a gimmick?

www.autocar.co.uk

A step backwards in my opinion. I don’t think this will take off.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

A step backwards in my opinion. I don’t think this will take off.

These car companies; they just don't know what they're doing.

$270 billion revenue a year. What makes them think that they know what people want ?

The thing that amuses me about Automatics is that I never sit with a driver of an automatic who knows how to use an automatic out of "drive," let alone in full "flappy paddle" mode.

And you discreetly talk around the subject - indirectly - and barely anyone even switches from "Ordinaire" to "Sport." (Present MBclub members excepted)

Even the 911 automatic drivers: just into "drive," and off we go.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

(Even if the fat middle-aged and pensioners buy them used - because they can't bend to get into C Class saloons any more)

Oi! I resemble that remark!

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

These car companies; they just don't know what they're doing.

$270 billion revenue a year. What makes them think that they know what people want ?

The thing that amuses me about Automatics is that I never sit with a driver of an automatic who knows how to use an automatic out of "drive," let alone in full "flappy paddle" mode.

And you discreetly talk around the subject - indirectly - and barely anyone even switches from "Ordinaire" to "Sport." (Present MBclub members excepted)

Even the 911 automatic drivers: just into "drive," and off we go.


View attachment 152139

To be fair, automatics are at their best in D and almost certainly modern automatic transmissions are much more capable than even an above average driver, whether that be quickest acceleration, most efficient, and even dealing with descents.

 

[190]

By 2040 ICE manuals will be so rare that they actually become desirable and more valuable for a certain few enthusiasts.

One exception may be sports motorcycles. Auto transmissions have been tried several times over many years and with the exception of small commuters never achieved much market success. I'm not aware that there are currently any auto sports bikes only a couple of middle weight Honda tourers. Even Motogp bikes are still foot change manual, albeit with some electronic trickery to facilitate clutch less changes.

I have no desire to ride an auto motorcycle as gear changing is part of the fun and much easier than in a manual car. In fact I would say there is a simple relationship that says manual gear changing becomes less desirable as vehicle weight increases. It's more tiresome to drive a heavy manual car than it is to drive a light weight one.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

To be fair, automatics are at their best in D and almost certainly modern automatic transmissions are much more capable than even an above average driver, whether that be quickest acceleration, most efficient, and even dealing with descents.

True... but why then pretend that "Sport" is necessary? Or +1 ? Or "flappy paddle? Why pay that bit extra for these "gubbins?"

If i can switch to "Spoorrtt" for that occasional spirited, non-motorway drive, why don't others?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

True... but why then pretend that "Sport" is necessary? Or +1 ? Or "flappy paddle? Why pay that bit extra for these "gubbins?"

If i can switch to "Spoorrtt" for that occasional spirited, non-motorway drive, why don't others?

There will be all sorts of reasons but many people will like the idea of being sporty - and being in control in manual mode - but rarely actually drive in a sporty manor. I’m one of those people,

As an example, I have some wholly inappropriate sporty cars but most of the time I probably drive more slowly than the average, and leave them all in Comfort mode with exhaust switched off.

Another are those who post saying their car is too sluggish and gearshifts are not snappy enough to complement their sporty driving style, so they then do the gearbox-reset-that--reset-the-gearbox.

They then post to say it was great whilst it last but wore off very quickly. It didn’t wear off, they just weren’t actually driving in the way that they like to think they do, so the car backs off its adaptive settings.

Similar logic explains why people buy relatively “ordinary” cars with AMG line trim, big wheels and ultra high performance ultra low profiles tyres, spoilers, “factory” sports exhausts etc.

Similar logic explains why people buy cars which are capable of crossing deserts and rainforests, with ladders on the back door, with storage boxes on the outside of the car, but just go to school and Waitrose in it.

I may be an extreme example but there are plenty of people who buy what’s in their mind’s eye rather than their reality.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

There will be all sorts of reasons but many people will like the idea of being sporty - and being in control in manual mode - but rarely actually drive in a sporty manor. I’m one of those people,

As an example, I have some wholly inappropriate sporty cars but most of the time I probably drive more slowly than the average, and leave them all in Comfort mode with exhaust switched off.

Another are those who post saying their car is too sluggish and gearshifts are not snappy enough to complement their sporty driving style, so they then do the gearbox-reset-that--reset-the-gearbox.

They then post to say it was great whilst it last but wore off very quickly. It didn’t wear off, they just weren’t actually driving in the way that they like to think they do, so the car backs off its adaptive settings.

Similar logic explains why people buy relatively “ordinary” cars with AMG line trim, big wheels and ultra high performance ultra low profiles tyres, spoilers, “factory” sports exhausts etc.

Similar logic explains why people buy cars which are capable of crossing deserts and rainforests, with ladders on the back door, with storage boxes on the outside of the car, but just go to school and Waitrose in it.

I may be an extreme example but there are plenty of people who buy what’s in their mind’s eye rather than their reality.

All true.

Which may help to explain why nearly half of all new cars are still chosen with manual gearboxes, "even though Automatics do a better job."

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

All true.

Which may help to explain why nearly half of all new cars are still chosen with manual gearboxes, "even though Automatics do a better job."

Low cost cars are more likely to be manual, less likely to have an automatic option (or be suited to an automatic option).

Automatic transmissions tend to be expensive to manufacture (and buy) and tend to work best with torquey engines.

Superminis and medium sized cars with small engines might still be best with manual gearboxes.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Low cost cars are more likely to be manual, less likely to have an automatic option (or be suited to an automatic option).

Automatic transmissions tend to be expensive to manufacture (and buy) and tend to work best with torquey engines.

Superminis and medium sized cars with small engines might still be best with manual gearboxes.

All true, Young Roberto. etc etc

 

[Noitz]

Gordon Murray's T50 being the exception to all those 'auto' only Hypercars with its 6 speed Xtrac manual box.