The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

I think that the point here is that all cars get sold, eventually. 'Undesirable' simply means that it will be sold for very cheap. But they all get sold. No new car will go straight to the breakers yard after it comes off its 3-year lease. They all get sold. And, as I pointed out before, in the case if EVs it simply means that second hand EVs will go for very cheap (if thet remain 'undesirable'). I also mentioned before that around 10 years ago a friend of mine bagged a fantastic deal on a 3-years old VW Phaeton, for exactly that reason - people didn't want them (no street creed), but he was very happy with his 'Bentley in disguise' bought for cheap.

Ignoring the Phaeton element, the same applies to any three or four year old Merc.

The majority are sold to fleet or finance, but even the private buyer of a new Merc sees its value crash as fleet and rental vehicles come onto the used market.

This isn’t rocket science

 

[Bellow]

If they're not desirable, then they'll be affordable - so good news again.

People aren't so stupid to not realise that a Taycan - no matter how cheap to buy - will be expensive when serviced by Porsche.

 

[markjay]

People aren't so stupid to not realise that a Taycan - no matter how cheap to buy - will be expensive when serviced by Porsche.

And yet, they all sell, eventually.... as did the Ill-fated Boxter. It's only a question of price.

 

[markjay]

BTW, people didn't want to buy a luxobarge with a big thirst V6 petrol engine and the Vauxhall logo on the front grille... which is how I got my two nearly-new Omegas for very little money

They were selling for less than a comparable Vectra 4-cyl Diesel

A lot of a car for very little money. If they didn't stop making them back in 2004, I might have been driving one today....

My first W203 was the same.... an 'undesirable' C180K in basic spec... a real bargain.

 

[Bellow]

And yet, they all sell, eventually.... as did the Ill-fated Boxter. It's only a question of price.

Who to? Who without re-charging facilities at home, is going to buy an EV that's recharging is so onerous as to make using public charge points unviable? Such a person may well already have an EV so that's another dent in demand.
If subsidising via BIK does not release suitable EVs for public consumption then not only will the policy be a massive failure, it will also be an expensive one.

 

[BTB 500]

And yet, they all sell, eventually.... as did the Ill-fated Boxter. It's only a question of price.

Indeed. There was a story yesterday about a pre-reg 2023 Polestar with 170 miles on the clock that had been reduced to £30k (original list price of around £60k new) without selling so far. Just had a quick look on AutoTrader and saw this one:





List price for a new one has dropped now but is still £49k without any options.

 

[markjay]

Who to? Who without re-charging facilities at home, is going to buy an EV that's recharging is so onerous as to make using public charge points unviable? Such a person may well already have an EV so that's another dent in demand.
If subsidising via BIK does not release suitable EVs for public consumption then not only will the policy be a massive failure, it will also be an expensive one.

Obviously, second hand EVs will only be bought by people who can charge them. Just as V6 petrol Omegas only sold to people who didn't mind the hefty fuel bills. These things limit the target audience, and bring down the price for those lucky few who are able and willing to buy them. Why is there an assumption that basic free market principles that have applied for all sorts of goods for decades, all of a sudden will not apply to EVs? Inherent bias?

 

[Bellow]

BTW, people didn't want to buy a luxobarge with a big thirst V6 petrol engine and the Vauxhall logo on the front grille... which is how I got my two nearly-new Omegas for very little money

They were selling for less than a comparable Vectra 4-cyl Diesel

A lot of a car for very little money. If they didn't stop making them back in 2004, I might have been driving one today....

My first W203 was the same.... an 'undesirable' C180K in basic spec... a real bargain.

And without easy access to the fuel it required, it wouldn't have worked for you - no matter how cheap to buy. It would though have been an even bigger bargain for whoever could easily refuel it. Which is where the BIK dodgers are heading - into the hands of the well-heeled with all their ducks in a row.

 

[markjay]

Indeed. There was a story yesterday about a pre-reg 2023 Polestar with 170 miles on the clock that had been reduced to £30k (original list price of around £60k new) without selling so far. Just had a quick look on AutoTrader and saw this one:

View attachment 152894

View attachment 152893

List price for a new one has dropped now but is still £49k without any options.

Thank you! The price will keep dropping until the car sells. Does anyone really think that this car will go to crusher with 158 miles on the clock? Seriously....

 

[markjay]

And without easy access to the fuel it required, it wouldn't have worked for you - no matter how cheap to buy. It would though have been an even bigger bargain for whoever could easily refuel it. Which is where the BIK dodgers are heading - into the hands of the well-heeled with all their ducks in a row.

Correct - which is why the price drops when the target audience is reduced in size. Good news for those who happen to be within the smaller target audience (i.e. people who have access public chargers) . This is just a general principle... nothing to do with cars specifically.

 

[Bellow]

. Why is there an assumption that basic free market principles that have applied for all sorts of goods for decades, all of a sudden will not apply to EVs? Inherent bias?

Oh, you know, that they rely on heavy taxpayer funded subsidies to shift them out of showrooms. Bit of a clue - no?
Where you'll find the bias is in those who just cannot accept that the continuing price slumping of EV purchase prices is a reflection of lack of demand.

 

[JHS]

Thank you! The price will keep dropping until the car sells. Does anyone really think that this car will go to crusher with 158 miles on the clock? Seriously....

Mark, please point us in the direction of anyone who has said this. I have searched and the only mention of it is by you.

 

[BTB 500]

Thank you! The price will keep dropping until the car sells. Does anyone really think that this car will go to crusher with 158 miles on the clock? Seriously....

Of course not, the point is that cars like these were counted as new EV registrations 12 months ago when in reality they have yet to be sold, even at hugely reduced prices. They're not used ex fleet/hire cars where this sort of depreciation is normal ... these are essentially new vehicles that would normally sell 'from stock' within a month or so at a moderate discount against list price.

 

[markjay]

Of course not, the point is that cars like these were counted as new EV registrations 12 months ago when in reality they have yet to be sold, even at hugely reduced prices. They're not used ex fleet/hire cars where this sort of depreciation is normal ... these are essentially new vehicles that would normally sell 'from stock' within a month or so at a moderate discount against list price.

The way the tax incentives currently work, is that they reward disproportionally business users who are getting the car on a business lease.

However, the tax benefits only apply to NEW cars - not to preregistered ones.

And given that the market is currently driven primarily by business users benefiting from low BIK tax (as was the case with Diesel cars in the past), it will be difficult to find a home for the more-expensive EVs if they are preregistered.

Whoever is selling this car, needs to get real and drop the price further, until it will sell - which it eventually will.

And, I am willing to bet that there will be people on here, who in 2010 or in 2015 or any time in between, bagged an amazing deal on a nearly-new or preregistered Diesel W212, for exactly the same reasons.

The bottom line is that not many people will buy outright privately a new expensive EV (or, for that matter, many other types of expensive cars).

My point is that when people are singling-out EVs for things that are simply prevalent across the car marketplace, and have been for years, it has to raise an eyebrow.

 

[markjay]

Mark, please point us in the direction of anyone who has said this. I have searched and the only mention of it is by you.

Fair enough. When a post says that certain type of cars "do not sell", what happens to them?

 

[Bellow]

The bottom line is that not many people will buy outright privately a new expensive EV (or, for that matter, many other types of expensive cars).

My point is that when people are singling-out EVs for things that are simply prevalent across the car marketplace, and have been for years, it has to raise an eyebrow.

The difference now is that expensive EVs is all there is on offer. When the W212s you mention were being sold there were small diesel cars (eg, Fiesta) available in a way that they aren't now and are getting scarcer by the day. Where is the equivalent EV to the BIK dodging EVs that the Fiesta was to W212s?

 

[markjay]

The difference now is that expensive EVs is all there is on offer. When the W212s you mention were being sold there were small diesel cars (eg, Fiesta) available in a way that they aren't now and are getting scarcer by the day. Where is the equivalent EV to the BIK dodging EVs that the Fiesta was to W212s?

Duster Spring? Starting at £20k.

MG4? Starting at £27k. I see lots of them around London, BTW.

 

[Bellow]

Duster Spring? Starting at £20k.

90 miles highway range (in moderate weather), 1000kg and 45hp. I've driven my 730kg smart with only 45hp (when the turbo was out of commission) and it was gutless. Any Fiesta (from any era) is a rocket ship next to the Spring and with a range that annihilates the Dacia's. It's cheap, but not a replacement on metrics that matter.

MG4? Starting at £27k.

Weren't Fiesta's available for half of that until quite recently?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Indeed. There was a story yesterday about a pre-reg 2023 Polestar with 170 miles on the clock that had been reduced to £30k (original list price of around £60k new) without selling so far. Just had a quick look on AutoTrader and saw this one:

View attachment 152894

View attachment 152893

List price for a new one has dropped now but is still £49k without any options.

Save £30k ? Pah ! Not when you can save £36k off the price of a £76.5k Volvo !

Bargain

https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/UK/Applications/DotCom/Documents/Shop/Pricelists/Volvo-XC90-pricelist.pdf

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The difference now is that expensive EVs is all there is on offer. When the W212s you mention were being sold there were small diesel cars (eg, Fiesta) available in a way that they aren't now and are getting scarcer by the day. Where is the equivalent EV to the BIK dodging EVs that the Fiesta was to W212s?

Cheap new EV ? Boy have we got a deal for you ! 223 mile range, 4 seater, perfect replacement for a Fiesta. Call it £14k if you ask the salesman nicely.