The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

Let's think about this. Could four iPhones or laptops be recharged simultaneously overnight? Can a kettle be used as the same time as a washing machine?

You would need to charge all four vehicles overnight if the family was driving 6-10,000 miles a week. (1,500 to 2,500 miles per vehicle)

Do many families actually do that kind of mileage, these days?

See my earlier comment re weekend usage.

(All this assumes that they don't charge at work, of course. For free, or discounted rates). And that their employer doesn't give them a company card to buy energy from a commercial charger.

At this point, my assumption is private ownership, zero workplace charging.

The more real world problem is the traditional "move your ruddy car, you're blocking mine on the drive again Darren")

Exactly that. Asking the public to accept additional difficulties in their life - when everything else is sold on the basis that it makes life easier - is a tough sell.

 

[markjay]

One goes to a football match 150 miles away, another to a gig 100 miles away, another goes... Point is, some people use their cars at the weekend - not just commute to work Monday to Friday. They will all have needed a decent level of charge before setting off. So Friday night and then again Sunday night.

Speed of charging is relevant then. What a faffing around that is though. Multiple cars to recharge and one night to do it. Nice end to the weekend that is.

Charging at home is the only viable method for many and multiple cars at one address hasn't been considered. Or maybe it has - by those refusing to buy EVs.

I concede that there may be some circumstances for some people where in certain scenarios home charging will be difficult.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

At this point, my assumption is private ownership, zero workplace charging.

How is this family buying their £100,000 EV's if they don't go to work?
Are they all Kardashians?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Asking the public to accept additional difficulties in their life - when everything else is sold on the basis that it makes life easier - is a tough sell.

Exactly: asking people to go to a petrol station to pay three or four times the cost of home charging is a tough sale.

You can understand why people who aren't wealthy Mercedes owners are waiting to save a grand or two a year by running a six year old EV.

 

[Dryce]

How so?

Most people just don't drive 300 miles a day, every day. I am not suggesting that they should be forbidden from doing so, just that they don't seem to have the need to be doing that.

I don't often drive 300+ miles per day on private use.

But the occasions that I do are significant part of my actual usage in terms of why I have the car that I do and why I like the 700 mile range that it has.

So only so many days per year - but it represents a significant % of my use in terms of distance travelled. So is a significant factor in the choice of vehicle.

Different owners have different usage patterns - and it's easy to be glib about some aspect of that usage without realising that it is a significant. (And the reverse is also true - it is easy to make abig thing about some usage aspect that is personally important but of little signuificance to many others).

The problem with the range or charging arguments is that what might seem to be minor or surmountable issues to those who already have BEVs are not to those who don't have BEVs. Both sides of the argument are effectively self selecting.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

One goes to a football match 150 miles away, another to a gig 100 miles away, another goes... Point is, some people use their cars at the weekend - not just commute to work Monday to Friday. They will all have needed a decent level of charge before setting off. So Friday night and then again Sunday night.

Once again, if people are travelling 300 miles on one day, and then another 250 miles the following day, they will need to charge overnight.

But honestly, how many people do that?

Isn't it more likely that folks do a big trip on one day, and then need only a brief charge to get them ready for the next day's commute

60% of vehicles travel less than 100 miles per week. 87% of vehicles travel less than 200 miles per week.

 

[Dryce]

Let's think about this. Could four iPhones or laptops be recharged simultaneously overnight? Can a kettle be used as the same time as a washing machine?

You would need to charge all four vehicles overnight if the family was driving 6-10,000 miles a week. (1,500 to 2,500 miles per vehicle)

Maybe the issue of bathrooms is a better analogy.

Back when I was young normal houses had one bathroom. We seemed to manage as a family.

Then from around the mid to latee 1980s even smaller modern houses had three bathrooms.

Now I can't envisage moving to an older house and surviving with one bathroom or even just two,

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Maybe the issue of bathrooms is a better analogy.

Back when I was young normal houses had one bathroom. We seemed to manage as a family.

Then from around the mid to latee 1980s even smaller modern houses had three bathrooms.

Now I can't envisage moving to an older house and surviving with one bathroom or even just two,

If you were using a toilet as often as you'd need to charge an EV,

you'd be using the toilet once a week.

Look at the EV's around you. Are they permanently tethered to their homes? Nope. Nowhere near.

 

[Bellow]

Once again, if people are travelling 300 miles on one day, and then another 250 miles the following day, they will need to charge overnight.

But honestly, how many people do that?

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm referring to multiple cars all doing range mileage on the same day.

Isn't it more likely that folks do a big trip on one day, and then only a brief charge to get them ready for the next day's commute

Has multiple EV ownership at a single address been tried yet? Will it ever given the faff of swapping cables on multiple vehicles through the course of the night to achieve even enough for the following day's commute?

60% of vehicles travel less than 100 miles per week. 87% of vehicles travel less than 200 miles per week

And the remaining 13%?
This feeds back to geography to some extent. Where I am (NE Scotland) everything anyone one might do at the weekend involves significant travel that is only viable by car. In London or any other sizeable cities there are alternative transport option and often as not, no need to travel when the football match, gig, etc is in the city. The sheer necessity of a car in more rural settings guarantees that multiple cars at single addresses is a fact.

 

[mercmancdi]

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm referring to multiple cars all doing range mileage on the same day.

Has multiple EV ownership at a single address been tried yet? Will it ever given the faff of swapping cables on multiple vehicles through the course of the night to achieve even enough for the following day's commute?

And the remaining 13%?
This feeds back to geography to some extent. Where I am (NE Scotland) everything anyone one might do at the weekend involves significant travel that is only viable by car. In London or any other sizeable cities there are alternative transport option and often as not, no need to travel when the football match, gig, etc is in the city. The sheer necessity of a car in more rural settings guarantees that multiple cars at single addresses is a fact.

Must remember that through your electric supplier you can get your premises upgraded most carry stand 100 watt main fuse this can be altered to allow the fast charge unit to be fitted which can reduce charging time from 11hrs to 3 . Also for multi car they can take the EV daily option in some places for a 8p per week standing charge reducing there average daily rate from 30 per k w to 27.

 

[Dryce]

If you were using a toilet as often as you'd need to charge an EV,

you'd be using the toilet once a week.

Look at the EV's around you. Are they permanently tethered to their homes? Nope. Nowhere near.

..... it's about perception of need / use rather than actual need / use.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

For elimination of doubt,

I won't be buying an EV any time soon because they're too new / expensive / "rubbish to drive" / ugly. (* delete according to model)

And I'm not bothered about changing vehicle to save the planet. Because it won't.

(Cough, yes I know that all of this is the Harry Metcalf argument)

Rule EV's out on those grounds. Not because of range, cabling, "time spent charging" or commercial charging during a 500 mile journey.

(By the way, another reason NOT to run an EV is that most girlfriends / wives won't want to put the filthy cable away into the boot of their car.)

Change takes time. No-one needed "the internet" in their own homes 20-30 years ago. But gradually the benefits emerged.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm referring to multiple cars all doing range mileage on the same day.

I know you were which is why I gave you the answer that they would only need a brief charge to get them ready for the next day's commute.

 

[markjay]

I don't often drive 300+ miles per day on private use.

But the occasions that I do are significant part of my actual usage in terms of why I have the car that I do and why I like the 700 mile range that it has.

So only so many days per year - but it represents a significant % of my use in terms of distance travelled. So is a significant factor in the choice of vehicle.

Different owners have different usage patterns - and it's easy to be glib about some aspect of that usage without realising that it is a significant. (And the reverse is also true - it is easy to make abig thing about some usage aspect that is personally important but of little signuificance to many others).

The problem with the range or charging arguments is that what might seem to be minor or surmountable issues to those who already have BEVs are not to those who don't have BEVs. Both sides of the argument are effectively self selecting.

OK, but what are the chances that all 4 cars in your drive over the weekend will be doing 300 miles on Monday morning? And will have depleted batteries when they arrive at your house, thus needing a full charge over the weekend? And using only a 'granny cable'? That's the hypothetical scenario that was being put forward. Not impossible, obviously, but certainly not common either

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Has multiple EV ownership at a single address been tried yet? Will it ever given the faff of swapping cables on multiple vehicles through the course of the night to achieve even enough for the following day's commute?

As I said earlier: "I do have neighbours who have two or three EV's on the drive. How do they charge them? When they need to - from one single cable."

If you're doing 60 - 100 ,000 miles a year in your vehicle, you probably need a dedicated charger for it when you get home every night, if you're not using commercial chargers when you're away from home.

But it doesn't take very long to fully charge an EV when it's parked up overnight.

Just look around you and see what people are actually doing with the tiny number of EV's on the streets today (less than 3% of all vehicles)

 

[BTB 500]

Once again, if people are travelling 300 miles on one day, and then another 250 miles the following day, they will need to charge overnight

In reality though not that many brand new EVs have a genuine 300 mile range (particularly in cold weather and/or on the motorway). Most households also don't have £250k worth of cars on the drive now, and that isn't going to change. Families will typically have a mix of older and/or lower spec. cars - the kids in particular are quite likely to be driving old/small/cheap ones that only had a theoretical range of 100-150 miles when new.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

..... it's about perception of need / use rather than actual need / use.

Sharing a bathroom with young people is nothing to do with perception of need.
Charging a car once, maybe even twice, a week is a different ballgame.

 

[markjay]

In reality though not that many brand new EVs have a genuine 300 mile range (particularly in cold weather and/or on the motorway). Most households also don't have £250k worth of cars on the drive now, and that isn't going to change. Families will typically have a mix of older and/or lower spec. cars - the kids in particular are quite likely to be driving old/small/cheap ones that only had a theoretical range of 100-150 miles when new.

This makes the scenario of having on your drive 4 EVs with depleted batteries that need charging to the full over the weekend using a single 'granny cable' just slightly more likely...........

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

In reality though not that many brand new EVs have a genuine 300 mile range (particularly in cold weather and/or on the motorway). Most households also don't have £250k worth of cars on the drive now, and that isn't going to change. Families will typically have a mix of older and/or lower spec. cars - the kids in particular are quite likely to be driving old/small/cheap ones that only had a theoretical range of 100-150 miles when new.

Exactly, which is why the whole argument is tosh.

It'll take a decade for us to get anywhere near the four EV driveway for "normal people,"

By which time kids will be running around in those horrible dented ten year old £5k Tesla 3's with 300+ miles worth of range. That will need charging every fortnight because they're still be driving less than one hundred miles a week

Let's be clear. Elon isn't about to sell 34 million EV's in the UK this year. EU regulators would love it, but he doesn't have the production volume, nor the right price.

 

[Bellow]

For elimination of doubt,

I won't be buying an EV any time soon because they're too new / expensive / "rubbish to drive" / ugly. (* delete according to model)

And I'm not bothered about changing vehicle to save the planet. Because it won't.

(Cough, yes I know that all of this is the Harry Metcalf argument)

Rule EV's out on those grounds. Not because of range, cabling, "time spent charging" or commercial charging during a 500 mile journey.

(By the way, another reason NOT to run an EV is that most girlfriends / wives won't want to put the filthy cable away into the boot of their car.)

Change takes time. No-one needed "the internet" in their own homes 20-30 years ago. But gradually the benefits emerged.

Bigger picture. By making EVs the only personal transport option and adding inconvenience to the point of acute difficulty for some, there is a real risk of the public turning its back on the entire decarbonising agenda. And for what? Marginally cleaner air in cities (the CO2 reduction argument for EVs is only applicable when recharged from renewable sources and we know damn well that an EV owner wont baulk at recharging on a sunless windless day when gas fired generation is being used).
Thus far, it's reasonable to say that EV uptake has been solely (in the main part - there will be exceptions) for financial gain (as it was with diesels). From here the expectation is that those outside of that loop commit their own money to EVs while having to solve recharging issues that are somewhere between inconvenient and unworkable (NB all recent technologies have been to make life easier - from robot vacuum cleaners to music/entertainment streaming and lots inbetween). How does this endear them to all the other changes required for a decarbonised world? And that's without broaching the lack of suitable EVs on offer to them.