The EV fact thread

[markjay]

Charging question! If you plug in at home overnight, can you program the car to cut off charging at 80%? Or will it keep charming to 100% then cut off?

You can program the car to stop charging at any battery level that you desire.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You can program the car to stop charging at any battery level that you desire.

So when I toured New England in that (dreadful but cheap) Tesla Y, I used a granny cable to charge to 80% when I was about to just travell locally the next day,
and to 100% on the night before I was about to drive a couple of hundred miles to the next Airbnb.

And to charge at the specific times you require. Like explicitly for the off-peak window.

 

[markjay]

Having had a Toyota for 22 years that didn't miss a beat, I can understand why Toyota can be confident in their Hybrid cars. In fact, they have been making the Prius and other Hybrids for many years, and they have all proved extremely reliable.

But my view is that very few car manufacturers can follow suit. In essence, Hybrid technology is the worst of both worlds - not only do you still have a complex ICE engine and transmission that require maintenance etc, AND the electric drive system, but you also have a third complex system to transfer power to the wheels from two different sources.

While Toyota can manage building reliable Hybrid cars, few other car manufacturers can do this. And I am not referring only to the issues with Mercedes Benz Hybrid cars. Think of the reliability issues reported for MG - and this is when building an EV, which is mechanically much simpler than an ICE car - would you trust them to build a reliable Hybrid car?

My point is that Toyota are both right and wrong when they refuse to build BEV cars - the are right about all the reasons given, but they are wrong because the majority of the market can't and won't follow their lead.

Toyota may feel that they are strong and dominant enough to dictate where the market is going. Just a reminder that 20 years ago, the the world's biggest computer manufacturer, IBM, decided that they were dominant enough to stipulate that PC technology and DOS/Windows reached the end of the road and the future is PC/2 and OS/2. 'Nough said .....

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Having had a Toyota for 22 years that didn't miss a beat, I can understand why Toyota can be confident in their Hybrid cars. In fact, they have been making the Prius and other Hybrids for many years, and they have all proved extremely reliable.

Gritting teeth more than slightly, Akio Toyoda is being repeatedly misquoted about global EV take up capping out at 30%.

He is not talking about Europe, that little wealthy, conscientious corner that's 5% of the world's population.

He's talking global: the eight billion, half of which who don't have access to clean water and sanitation.

EV's may be a worth cause, but for someone without clean water, who's still pooping in fields, the priority is still getting a very cheap motor to get the breadwinner to work.

We have Northerners and Welshmen who are frightened by the prospect of being 30 miles from a commercial EV charger, because they don't know how to use the electricity in their own home.

Zambians and Venezuelans living miles from anywhere have bigger problems

Akio knows what people do with his cars. EU regulators, sat in conference rooms in Brussels, know how to write demanding legislation for Euro 6 and demanding timelines for EV manufacture.

Toyota Chairman Predicts Battery Electric Cars Will Only Reach 30% Share

Toyota Motor Corp. Chairman Akio Toyoda believes battery electric vehicles will reach at most 30% market share, with the rest taken up by hybrids, hydrogen fuel cell and fuel-burning cars.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[ALFAitalia]

Interesting fact (thought I would post an actual FACT as most of what is posted on here in the EV FACT THREAD is far from fact....just opinion with much of it being complete nonsense!) .....
So here goes.......like your ICE car weighs more fully fuelled....so does your EV.....but not by quite (!) as much. According to Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity, energy has mass. Through his equation E = mc2, we can deduce the mass of energy put into batteries.
The battery of a large Tesla holds 100 kilowatt hours, or 3.6 × 108 joules, hence the extra mass from charging it would be 4 × 10-9 kilograms. This is a very tiny mass compared with the mass of the car, which is typically more than 2000kg for a large Tesla....but its heavier when charged none the less.

 

[BTB 500]

But a 1950s carsvs a 1980s car is a much larger difference in every aspect

As an aside quite a few cars on sale in the early 1950s were still 1930s models (due to WW2).

 

[markjay]

Interesting fact (thought I would post an actual FACT as most of what is posted on here in the EV FACT THREAD is far from fact....just opinion with much of it being complete nonsense!) .....
So here goes.......like your ICE car weighs more fully fuelled....so does your EV.....but not by quite (!) as much. According to Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity, energy has mass. Through his equation E = mc2, we can deduce the mass of energy put into batteries.
The battery of a large Tesla holds 100 kilowatt hours, or 3.6 × 108 joules, hence the extra mass from charging it would be 4 × 10-9 kilograms. This is a very tiny mass compared with the mass of the car, which is typically more than 2000kg for a large Tesla....but its heavier when charged none the less.

Not quite... Mass is converted into energy only in the heart of stars and in man-made nuclear reactors. But nowhere else.

Other than that, the mass does not change.

The energy in the battery is generated by moving electrons from one side of the battery to the other (thus creating a potential difference). The mass of the battery remains exactly the same, regardless of how much chemical energy is stored in it by rearranging the electrons inside the battery.

 

[BTB 500]

Just a reminder that 20 years ago, the the world's biggest computer manufacturer, IBM, decided that they were dominant enough to stipulate that PC technology and DOS/Windows reached the end of the road and the future is PC/2 and OS/2. 'Nough said .....

More like 30+ years ago! In the '80s I worked on a huge trading project based on PS/2s running OS/2 and a mainframe DB2 database. It ended up being delivered as a good old CICS/COBOL mainframe application, with the PS/2s just running 3270 terminal emulation

 

[Bellow]

Said tank gives the Mirai a range of 400 miles though, and it's lighter and cheaper than an equivalent BEV

All that's needed is more hydrogen filling points.

TfL started using hydrogen fuel cell buses 20 years ago and currently have 20+ of them in daily use. For sure they're operating from fixed bases but they must have got the supply/storage sorted out.

I posted a while back that the new filling points being constructed initially for truck/van use are based on tanker trailers that would be connected directly to the filling points then swapped for full ones when empty. Vauxhall now have a hydrogen fuel cell Vivaro van, and Ford are trialling fuel cell Transits:

Vauxhall, despite it being two weeks since I queried the nature of the tank in their van - still haven't replied. Hardly confidence inspiring.

The Toyota Mirai has been on sale for 10 years now so that must have been addressed somehow.

Autocar reckoned the Mirai was subsidised by Toyota to the tune of £20,000. That, tells it's own story.

A 95 kg carbon fibre cannot be anything but very expensive. But what of the tanks required at the distribution level? Recall, hydrogen is promoted as being the ideal storage medium for surplus electricity. With storage being so difficult and thus expensive, how can this ever be so? Unless used immediately ie used as quickly as it is generated (must take) it requires storage. Used as 'must take' implies a continual need which relying on intermittent surplus supply wont fulfil.

 

[ToeKnee]

You can program the car to stop charging at any battery level that you desire.

Thanks Mark!

 

[Bellow]

For sure. No-one in their right mind worries about charging times unless they're genuine 50,000 mile a year away from home types.

With say, four EVs on the drive (his, hers + two kids') all needing recharged over night, that could change.
Can all four EVs be recharged simultaneously? If not - and it's far from obvious that they can - then speed of recharging will become a priority as the other three wait for the first car to finish its recharging. And so on... As for the users of the cars - will they draw straws to determine who stays up all night swapping cables?
So far it's all been about one EV, one home recharging point but the long term aim is for all cars to be EVs and as the saying goes, Brits have more cars per households than books. And not one thought devoted to how that will pan out.

 

[markjay]

With say, four EVs on the drive (his, hers + two kids') all needing recharged over night, that could change.
Can all four EVs be recharged simultaneously? If not - and it's far from obvious that they can - then speed of recharging will become a priority as the other three wait for the first car to finish its recharging. And so on... As for the users of the cars - will they draw straws to determine who stays up all night swapping cables?
So far it's all been about one EV, one home recharging point but the long term aim is for all cars to be EVs and as the saying goes, Brits have more cars per households than books. And not one thought devoted to how that will pan out.

Why would you want to charge all 4 EVs simultaneously? With 300m miles range, each EV will typically need to be charged around once a week. Surely you can manage the charging one-at-a-time? Of course, if every one of your 4 EVs covered 300 miles a day, every day, then home charging might not work for you.

 

[Dryce]

Not to be confused with BD's implicit question, don't private buyers typically buy pre-registered vehicles? (Which I think they do, especially now that it's so easy to source vehicles nationally, leaving brand new cars to the factory order / "got to have the newly released model" mob.

PCPs and finance tended to be typical route of private buyers. Traditional delivery mileage pre-registered had faded off during the last 10 to 15 years - replaced with higher mileage cars that had been used in some way for a few months.

I think we're now seeing pre-reg stocks building like they have at various times in the past. That's distorting things with an additional wrinkle. Pre-reg models bought by dealers to sell on using in-house finance offers are competing with manufacture new stock / factory order on PCP finance with things like 'deposit contributions'. That means in some cases the gap between the prereg sticker price and the list price is well beyond what I've seen in the past.

Another aspect of his is that for the likes of MB this is rather at odds with the 'agency' model they have been p[ushing over the last couple of years. If the likes of MB are forced to dump some stocks as delivery mileage pre-reg to larger dealer chains - then they are conceding control on pricing.

 

[Bellow]

Why would you want to charge all 4 EVs simultaneously? With 300m miles range, each EV will typically need to be charged around once a week. Surely you can manage the charging one-at-a-time? Of course, if every one of your 4 EVs covered 300 miles a day, every day, then home charging might not work for you.

Active households at the weekend who all have to get to work on Monday morning?
Your reply though suggest restricting mileage is the answer. Not really what cars are about to my mind.

 

[markjay]

Active households at the weekend who all have to get to work on Monday morning?
Your reply though suggest restricting mileage is the answer. Not really what cars are about to my mind.

How so?

Most people just don't drive 300 miles a day, every day. I am not suggesting that they should be forbidden from doing so, just that they don't seem to have the need to be doing that.

As for the scenario where 4 EVs with depleted batteries end up on your drive and need to be charged over the weekend, the obvious answer is to charge each one just sufficiently to allow them to continue their journey on Monday morning.

Unless, of course, all 4 EVs with depleted batteries need to travel 300 miles on Monday morning... in which case, again, home charging won't work for you.

 

[BTB 500]

Vauxhall, despite it being two weeks since I queried the nature of the tank in their van - still haven't replied. Hardly confidence inspiring.

Autocar reckoned the Mirai was subsidised by Toyota to the tune of £20,000. That, tells it's own story.

A 95 kg carbon fibre cannot be anything but very expensive. But what of the tanks required at the distribution level? Recall, hydrogen is promoted as being the ideal storage medium for surplus electricity. With storage being so difficult and thus expensive, how can this ever be so? Unless used immediately ie used as quickly as it is generated (must take) it requires storage. Used as 'must take' implies a continual need which relying on intermittent surplus supply wont fulfil.

Not sure hydrogen is an ideal fuel at all. But it's the only viable option for a large percentage of commercial road traffic if you have to go zero emissions now (in the next few years). As mentioned TfL has been using hydrogen powered buses since 2004 so it's clearly not impossible.

Toyota may well subsidise the Mirai but they're a commercial organisation rather than a charity, so they must have a financial justification for this. Are the fuel cell cars that Hyundai have been selling since 2013 all loss-making as well? Will Vauxhall be selling their fuel cell Vivaro at a loss? Are Ford, BMW, Honda and JLR all intending to make a loss on the fuel cell vehicles they're working on?

 

[Dryce]

Having had a Toyota for 22 years that didn't miss a beat, I can understand why Toyota can be confident in their Hybrid cars. In fact, they have been making the Prius and other Hybrids for many years, and they have all proved extremely reliable.

I've never been impressed by Toyota hybrids when using them over the last 20 years. I just feel their setup has no real world purpose other than to be a hybrid for its own sake and meet some paper specification.

(To my eternal shame I will admit that I find the C-HR oddly likeable despite overstyling of the body, frustratingly short EV range, frustratingly short ICE range, and frustratingly low mpg).

Toyota may feel that they are strong and dominant enough to dictate where the market is going. Just a reminder that 20 years ago, the the world's biggest computer manufacturer, IBM, decided that they were dominant enough to stipulate that PC technology and DOS/Windows reached the end of the road and the future is PC/2 and OS/2. 'Nough said .....

That's an interesting analogy. But the winner in that long ago battle was Windows 3.0 which was ..... a bit like taking a slick modern EV motor and sticking it in a shiny but cheap car with a live axle suspension and then powering it from lead acid batteries.

I

 

[Bellow]

How so?

Most people just don't drive 300 miles a day, every day. I am not suggesting that they should be forbidden from doing so, just that they don't seem to have the need to be doing that.

One goes to a football match 150 miles away, another to a gig 100 miles away, another goes... Point is, some people use their cars at the weekend - not just commute to work Monday to Friday. They will all have needed a decent level of charge before setting off. So Friday night and then again Sunday night.

As for the scenario where 4 EVs with depleted batteries end up on your drive and need to be charged over the weekend, the obvious answer is to charge each one just sufficiently to allow them to continue their journey on Monday morning.

Speed of charging is relevant then. What a faffing around that is though. Multiple cars to recharge and one night to do it. Nice end to the weekend that is.

Unless, of course, all 4 EVs with depleted batteries need to travel 300 miles on Monday morning... in which case, again, home charging won't work for you.

Charging at home is the only viable method for many and multiple cars at one address hasn't been considered. Or maybe it has - by those refusing to buy EVs.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

With say, four EVs on the drive (his, hers + two kids') all needing recharged over night, that could change.
Can all four EVs be recharged simultaneously? If not - and it's far from obvious that they can - then speed of recharging will become a priority as the other three wait for the first car to finish its recharging. And so on... As for the users of the cars - will they draw straws to determine who stays up all night swapping cables?
So far it's all been about one EV, one home recharging point but the long term aim is for all cars to be EVs and as the saying goes, Brits have more cars per households than books. And not one thought devoted to how that will pan out.

Let's think about this. Could four iPhones or laptops be recharged simultaneously overnight? Can a kettle be used as the same time as a washing machine?

You would need to charge all four vehicles overnight if the family was driving 6-10,000 miles a week. (1,500 to 2,500 miles per vehicle)

Do many families actually do that kind of mileage, these days?

(All this assumes that they don't charge at work, of course. For free, or discounted rates). And that their employer doesn't give them a company card to buy energy from a commercial charger.

The more real world problem is the traditional "move your ruddy car, you're blocking mine on the drive again Darren")

I do have neighbours who have two or three EV's on the drive. How do they charge them? When they need to - from one single cable. ICE owners fill cars when they're empty. EV owners fill cars when they can, usually outside their homes.

Just one in 35 cars is currently an EV. In a decade's time, taking the most optimistic forecast, it'll be one in four. (But we know it won't be that many)

 

[Petrol Pete]

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