The EV fact thread

[philnewmerc]

In future it could easily reduce based upon supply/demand, with discounts on very sunny and/or very windy days because the electricity generated must go somewhere. Whilst no doubt some will be captured - using schemes like the water batter my being planned in Scotland - EV owners could be incentivised to store it in the car’s battery. Let’s see.

Perfectly possible.

Or, like petrol, they'll add 50% tax because there's no alternative for consumers and they need the cash they lost from petrol

 

[BTB 500]

Industrial gas bottles at 350 bar weigh 100kg for each kg of hydrogen stored. Toyota's tanks store at 700 bar and can hold 5 kg in a tank weighing 96kg. It is however carbon fibre and one more reason FCVs are prohibitively expensive. Hydrogen storage is the only thing that makes batteries in EV attractive WRT energy density.

Said tank gives the Mirai a range of 400 miles though, and it's lighter and cheaper than an equivalent BEV

All that's needed is more hydrogen filling points.

 

[philnewmerc]

For sure. No-one in their right mind worries about charging times unless they're genuine 50,000 mile a year away from home types.

Just wanted to point out the small print below that charge from 8 to 80% in 16 minutes claim.

My first US Robotics modem was 56k bps (1996). In 2020 my new router was 1,000,000k bps.

Kit gets faster. "Not everyone understands this."

I'm sure that charge time can't be good for the battery.

As for tech advancement, this is a very interesting change compared to ice. Ice cars haven't improved much over the last 30 years, in some ways they've declined (heavier, shorter life etc), ok they're slightly more efficient and safe etc. Anyway, a 1994 S class or Porsche 911 is still perfectly quick and comfy and and enjoyable and doesn't feel too decrepit, but even a 5 year old EV is looking ancient... We're in the equivalent of 1950s in the EV car development phase i reckon in that in 1980 a 1950s car felt bloody ancient

 

[BTB 500]

Agreed. It's certainly extremely difficult and expensive to store making it grossly uneconomic for widespread distribution and use.

TfL started using hydrogen fuel cell buses 20 years ago and currently have 20+ of them in daily use. For sure they're operating from fixed bases but they must have got the supply/storage sorted out.

I posted a while back that the new filling points being constructed initially for truck/van use are based on tanker trailers that would be connected directly to the filling points then swapped for full ones when empty. Vauxhall now have a hydrogen fuel cell Vivaro van, and Ford are trialling fuel cell Transits:

Ford to trial hydrogen-powered E-Transits

A hydrogen-powered Ford E-Transit will be developed as part of a new project, part funded by the Advanced Propulsion Centre.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

If you can spare the energy to reduce 100kg steel tanks to molten. Better not to have even made them. Recycled carbon fibre? Maybe (I've heard of it being shredded and incorporated into new composites) but the cost of 95kg carbon fibre tank would make you want to keep it not destroy it! Destroying it though is a likely possibility if it fails its 3 yearly inspection. Inspection method unspecified but I can't imagine any form of NDT being possible without removal of the tank from the vehicle. More cost.

The Toyota Mirai has been on sale for 10 years now so that must have been addressed somehow.

 

[markjay]

I'm sure that charge time can't be good for the battery....

I guessed that most first owners don't generally care if the battery will last 10 years or only 8 years.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I guessed that most first owners don't generally care if the battery will last 10 years or only 8 years.

But is Porsche the kind of company that doesn't care if its motors / engines will need replacement at 10 years?6

An IMS bearing on a 911 996 at 20 years old: for sure. But that is still just a bearing

Porsche is the kind of company that does care.

Not that many Porkers will be regularly topped up at 350 kwh any time soon. I mean... why would you?

Taycans sit in garages and average 7,000 miles a year. That's one just 135 mile top up a week

 

[clk320x]

I'm sure that charge time can't be good for the battery.

Why?

The BMS keeps the temp within optimal levels - look at the case studies of Tesla’s regularly charged on 250 kWh chargers.

 

[markjay]

But is Porsche the kind of company that doesn't care if its motors / engines will need replacement at 10 years?6

An IMS bearing on a 911 996 at 20 years old: for sure. But that is still just a bearing

Porsche is the kind of company that does care.

Not that many Porkers will be regularly topped up at 350 kwh any time soon. I mean... why would you?

Taycans sit in garages and average 7,000 miles a year. That's one just 135 mile top up a week

I am sure that Mercedes Benz do not encourage owners to give their engines full beans from cold.... and yet you can do that if you want to.

Porsche slowing down the charging rate in order to prolong the battery's service life is akin to Mercedes Benz limiting the engine's performance until the engine and transmission reach optimal operating temperatures to benefit the third or forth owner down the line.

 

[markjay]

...or putting the car into limp mode if a service is skipped. Etc.

 

[Dryce]

As for tech advancement, this is a very interesting change compared to ice. Ice cars haven't improved much over the last 30 years, in some ways they've declined (heavier, shorter life etc), ok they're slightly more efficient and safe etc.

Cars improved a lot over the last 30 years.

Early 90s - ABS start to become ubiquitious
Mid 90s - automatic transmissions in larger cars becomes much improved
Late 90s - modern safety cells reach a peak and airbags and catalytic converters - replacement exhausts disappear
Early 2000s - integration of electronics in entertainment and ubiquity of fuel injection
Mid 2000s - refinements in automatic transmissions for small cars
Late 2000s - diesels much improved - eg. E220 moves from being a slug to something quite swift
Early 2010s - automatic transmission take another step with DCT/DSG refinements and the likes of ZF 8
Mid 2010s - the decline of diesel and start of decline in investment
Late 2010s - the latest generation A Class does what it does and does it very well.
Early 2020s - costs seem to go way up

The A Class gets a particular mention from me because I think MB achieved a car taht is on the surface fairly bland but does everything it does so well - diesel or petrol - and as an automatic drives and covers distance better than some larger MBs of previous generations.

I think there was a sweet spot about 2012 to 2017 where cars were in real terms cheaper than they were before - or are now - and in terms of automatics and small/family cars had reached a pinnacle.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hands up who personally has bought (or financed) a brand new unregistered city car - regardless of drivetrain - in the last five years.

Bought personally for yourself (not family members or friends), and brand new spec-to-order (not demo/nearlynew, etc).

So cars like Smart, Fiesta, Corsa, Ka, 500, Zoe, etc (or smaller).

Nobody, not even one?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Nobody, not even one?

Quite.

 

[Dryce]

Nobody, not even one?

Nobody in our immediate circle of family, friends, neighbours is buying cars any more - not planning to buy new are used at the moment. We're all sitting tight on increasing aging vehicles.

When discussed this comes down to two factors - not ready to buy an EV and not willing to 'invest' in a new (or nearly new car) that has an ICE because of fear of government or council restrictions.

This is a strange sort of replay of the diesel situation in the 2000s where people who didn't really benefit from diesel would ... go for a diesel because of government encouragement overshot and gone silly. But it's operating in reverse. There are people who would probably benefit from an EV because of their usage patterns - but they're not buying. There are those who don't realise that new diesels are compliant with ULEZ/LEZ. In effect government discouragement has overshot and gone silly.

 

[Smiley]

Cars improved a lot over the last 30 years.

Early 90s - ABS start to become ubiquitious
Mid 90s - automatic transmissions in larger cars becomes much improved
Late 90s - modern safety cells reach a peak and airbags and catalytic converters - replacement exhausts disappear
Early 2000s - integration of electronics in entertainment and ubiquity of fuel injection
Mid 2000s - refinements in automatic transmissions for small cars
Late 2000s - diesels much improved - eg. E220 moves from being a slug to something quite swift
Early 2010s - automatic transmission take another step with DCT/DSG refinements and the likes of ZF 8
Mid 2010s - the decline of diesel and start of decline in investment
Late 2010s - the latest generation A Class does what it does and does it very well.
Early 2020s - costs seem to go way up

The A Class gets a particular mention from me because I think MB achieved a car taht is on the surface fairly bland but does everything it does so well - diesel or petrol - and as an automatic drives and covers distance better than some larger MBs of previous generations.

I think there was a sweet spot about 2012 to 2017 where cars were in real terms cheaper than they were before - or are now - and in terms of automatics and small/family cars had reached a pinnacle.

I'd agree with this except that the sweetspot started a bit before 2012....more like 2004/05. Packed with decent safety features like airbags and ABS, decent brakes, rust problems diminishing (mostly), decent economy and performance BUT before the cars became overweight with sensors and everything coded to the car - making even simple repairs a complete pita. The e class 211 is a good example - early pre DPF 646/7/8 a dream, later 642 still good, then the 212 with the new 651 engine can still be good but slipping back, then the 213 with adblue and lots of main dealer only coding needed and expensive parts in short supply, no wonder people are put off buying newer cars.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Nobody in our immediate circle of family, friends, neighbours is buying cars any more - not planning to buy new are used at the moment. We're all sitting tight on increasing aging vehicles.

When discussed this comes down to two factors - not ready to buy an EV and not willing to 'invest' in a new (or nearly new car) that has an ICE because of fear of government or council restrictions.

This is a strange sort of replay of the diesel situation in the 2000s where people who didn't really benefit from diesel would ... go for a diesel because of government encouragement overshot and gone silly. But it's operating in reverse. There are people who would probably benefit from an EV because of their usage patterns - but they're not buying. There are those who don't realise that new diesels are compliant with ULEZ/LEZ. In effect government discouragement has overshot and gone silly.

So, going back to the exam question..... did those actually buy brand new before ?

I know... admittedly poor people... you used to "buy" small city cars and other small cars up to Clio or Fiesta size but haven't done so over the last five years.

And they haven't because headline prices have gone up, and then to cap it, finance costs have also become less attractive.

(I say "poor people" because, to a woman, they're always people who don't have any money, so they PCP their way into a new small car, thinking that it's a cheap way of running a vehicle. Which obviously it isn't.

Not to be confused with BD's implicit question, don't private buyers typically buy pre-registered vehicles? (Which I think they do, especially now that it's so easy to source vehicles nationally, leaving brand new cars to the factory order / "got to have the newly released model" mob.

 

[philnewmerc]

Cars improved a lot over the last 30 years..

I think the salient point I made was that:
"a 1994 S class or Porsche 911 is still perfectly quick and comfy and and enjoyable and doesn't feel too decrepit, but even a 5 year old EV is looking ancient... We're in the equivalent of 1950s in the EV car development phase i reckon *in that in 1980 a 1950s car felt bloody ancient*"

I'm personally not interested in a supermini, but if i was then yes they are much safer than 30 years ago (S class was pretty safe). Not sure all the electronics you mention is an improvement imho. But a 1950s carsvs a 1980s car is a much larger difference in every aspect... Like EVs now

 

[markjay]

I think the salient point I made was that:
"a 1994 S class or Porsche 911 is still perfectly quick and comfy and and enjoyable and doesn't feel too decrepit, but even a 5 year old EV is looking ancient... We're in the equivalent of 1950s in the EV car development phase i reckon *in that in 1980 a 1950s car felt bloody ancient*"

I'm personally not interested in a supermini, but if i was then yes they are much safer than 30 years ago (S class was pretty safe). Not sure all the electronics you mention is an improvement imho. But a 1950s carsvs a 1980s car is a much larger difference in every aspect... Like EVs now

This is true, like iPhones, laptops, and TVs, technology now moves much faster also for cars. Part of the reason is that software plays a big part in these systems, and new software can be developed and rolled out relatively easier and quicker than new hardware.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It's a curiosity that in 1990 you could lap the 117 miles of the M25 in an interesting time - at night - with your GTI 16v.

While today's cars are "theoretically" faster, but can't be driven anywhere near as fast in the real world

 

[ToeKnee]

Charging question! If you plug in at home overnight, can you program the car to cut off charging at 80%? Or will it keep charming to 100% then cut off?