The EV fact thread

[SmartAmg]

Are EVs too heavy to be stopped safely by roadside guardrails?

Results from crash testing in the US have raised concerns that electric vehicles may be too heavy to be stopped safely by guardrails on roads.

www.euronews.com

What a load of cobblers.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

What a load of cobblers.

Those blooming EVs don’t just go straight through crash barriers and barely slow down because of their size and weight, but they also go underneath crash barriers.

The article didn’t go on to explain why the Tesla went underneath the barrier, so I think we can assume it’s simply because it has too much EVness about it.

 

[neilrr]

A lower centre of gravity is mentioned as a reason in the 5th para.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Despite many EV drivers commenting that for them it’s very convenient to charge an EV when parked at work, at the shops or at home, it is often written in this thread by ICE drivers that it would potentially be very inconvenient if they had to stop to charge an EV on long journeys. The bolt-on comment is that this is especially important as not everyone can charge at work, at the shops or at home (because they don’t have off-road parking).

Fair.

However not much is written about the inconvenience of having to visit a petrol station in an ICE car, and instead it’s described as convenient because you don’t have to stop on the long journey, and you can just fill when passing on another journey. However not everyone lives close to, works close to or passes a petrol station to fill up in just a few minutes on the journey before or after the long one.

Let’s add some balance.

On my journey to the office today I needed to fill up with fuel, so I thought I would note how long it took to fill up. My journey was 37 miles, of which 2 miles is on an unnumbered road, 24 miles is on a major trunk road (dual carriageway), 5 miles is on a major A road, and 6 miles is on a motorway. My office is in a very busy area of Birmingham, and my journey starts in a village which is 5 miles from the nearest town and 11 miles from a major city.

So this is not a journey in a remote area, 35 miles are covered on three of the most significant roads in the West Midlands. However I don’t pass a petrol station. The nearest is half a mile from my route, so an additional 1 mile. The total elapsed time from exiting my route to rejoining was 19 minutes, of which 1 minute was driving to the petrol station, 6 minutes was refuelling (23.5 litres), 12 minutes was driving back to my route.

When I rejoined my route the estimated time of arrival on Google Maps had increased by 7 minutes during that time, and the ETA proved to be correct. so I added 26 minutes to my journey for refueling. The journey took 1 hour 32 minutes and so added 41% to my journey time. I paid 10p per litre more than the fuel station I would “drive to”, and I got wet doing it.

That’s reality for me, with 95% of my journeys and 99.x% of miles in that car following the same route. Other people may only travel when there’s no traffic. Others may live next door to a petrol station. Others may pass 10 petrol stations on their trip to work. However I like many people accept that that’s just part and parcel of driving a car.

As it is I have to refill with petrol every second or third day. If had an EV capable of 80 mile round trip (ie 72 mile round trip plus 10% contingency) then I would never need to charge it away from home when doing those trips. I am fortunate enough to have off-road parking and more than one car, but many other people do too, especially those of working age and in a couple.

Everyone’s reality is different and just because an EV doesn’t work for one person in their circumstances doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work for others. Dare I say it that the perception might be different to the reality if some tried it. Based upon the facts of my experience today then you’d have to conclude that a petrol car is not feasible. It is though, because it has been for years, I and others have just accepted it as the norm.

PS Oh and there was nothing unusual about today, I even walked straight to the till without waiting, no queue at pumps or in the shop.

 

[markjay]

Those blooming EVs don’t just go straight through crash barriers and barely slow down because of their size and weight, but they also go underneath crash barriers.

The article didn’t go on to explain why the Tesla went underneath the barrier, so I think we can assume it’s simply because it has too much EVness about it.

I wonder how a Panamera would fair in similar city? Or a Rapide? Or even a CLS? They won't have the low centre of gravity that the Model S has, would they still go under the barrier?

 

[SmartAmg]

I wonder how a Panamera would fair in similar city? Or a Rapide? Or even a CLS? They won't have the low centre of gravity that the Model S has, would they still go under the barrier?

Probably.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

A lower centre of gravity is mentioned as a reason in the 5th para.

It does, ii noticed that too, but it doesn’t say why that’s relevant to the findings, nor does it link it to the Tesla going “underneath” the railings on impact.

I’m a struggling to see how the centre of gravity being lower than an ICE means that it would be significant in the reason that a Tesla go underneath the railings.

 

[BTB 500]

The total elapsed time from exiting my route to rejoining was 19 minutes, of which 1 minute was driving to the petrol station, 6 minutes was refuelling (23.5 litres), 12 minutes was driving back to my route.

I refuelled both our vehicles on Tuesday and made a note of the details. Decided not to post as the 'stops' discussion seemed to have run its course, but as it has come up again ...

Stop 1 was the big Sainsbury's filling station in Telford just after lunch (14:35). Stopwatch timed from car stopping to car driving away again, 66.05 litres of unleaded, total elapsed time 3:04. This was paying in the kiosk, no queue. Contactless card payment as under £100.

Stop 2 was a big Morrisons forecourt later in the afternoon (16:26). Same timing method as above, 73.22 litres of diesel pumped, total time 4:21. Paying in the kiosk again, 1 person in front of me this time. Pin required for card payment as just over £100.

Neither fill required any diversion at all (and I passed other forecourts by the roadside I could have used instead if necessary). Both filling stations had big canopies so rain wouldn't have been inconvenient at all. We get Nectar points at Sainsburys and rewards points at Morrisons which is nice but these add a little time when paying. Both sites offered pay at pump which would possibly have been slightly quicker than walking to/from the kiosk.

The main thing though is that both vehicles have a 500 mile or so range, so refuelling for us is pretty infrequent. And whenever we do it's quick and painless, despite living in a fairly rural area with the nearest fuel being 6 miles away. The only time I've ever got fuel at motorway services is when driving to Germany and back.

Totally accept that it can be more of a pain for others though, depending on personal circumstances.

PS I joked before about my home filling station (complete with electric pump) that I use for the tractor, but actually keeping a jerrycan of fuel at home could potentially be quite handy if you run the car so low that you can't reach a filling station on your preferred route next time you're going out.

 

[Mactech]

It does, ii noticed that too, but it doesn’t say why that’s relevant to the findings, nor does it link it to the Tesla going “underneath” the railings on impact.

I’m a struggling to see how the centre of gravity being lower than an ICE means that it would be significant in the reason that a Tesla go underneath the railings.

The C of G is a factor in how the car and barrier interface. However, it is just one of a myriad of factors which include (but not limited to) the velocity of impact, the anchoring of the barrier posts, the crumple zones on any given vehicle, the height of the first part of the vehicle to impact the barrier, the mass of the vehicle, the distance of initial impact to the anchor posts.....and of course, it's EVness.
A BMW i3 at just 1300kgs and being relatively tall has less EVidity than most....

 

[markjay]

It does, ii noticed that too, but it doesn’t say why that’s relevant to the findings, nor does it link it to the Tesla going “underneath” the railings on impact.

I’m a struggling to see how the centre of gravity being lower than an ICE means that it would be significant in the reason that a Tesla go underneath the railings.

I am thinking that perhaps the Tesla's centre mass - the battery - can slide under the barrier, while the cabin upper structure gets crumbled and can't stop the car from moving forward.

With an ICE car, the centre mass is high up and at the front (the engine with the transmission bolted on to it at the rear), so the engine mass would have hit the barrier and stopped the vehicle from moving forward.

The lesson from this (if my reasoning is indeed correct) is that crash barriers that were originally designed and tested 50 years ago should be updated to suit modern vehicles.

But on the other hand, I am not sure if the occupants would have been any luckier if their ICE car smashed at high speed head on into a crash barrier and the bounced back - the crash barrier is elastic and would have absorbed some of the energy, but the g force transferred to the occupants might very well be fatal even after the energy loss.

If the ICE car smashed through the crash barrier though, then it would have been in the same situation as the Tesla, BUT it would have lost more energy at the point of collision with the crash barrier.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The C of G is a factor in how the car and barrier interface. However, it is just one of a myriad of factors which include (but not limited to) the velocity of impact, the anchoring of the barrier posts, the crumple zones on any given vehicle, the height of the first part of the vehicle to impact the barrier, the mass of the vehicle, the distance of initial impact to the anchor posts.....and of course, it's EVness.
A BMW i3 at just 1300kgs and being relatively tall has less EVidity than most....

Agreed it could be a factor but I can’t see it being a significant factor worthy of the headline.

 

[Mactech]

Yes, the time it takes to refuel an EV can be very tedious. Now I have my Meross smart plug, I've got to navigate all the way to the app on my phone and tap a button. Whenever the sun comes out I can turn on the charger.
Takes almost 4 seconds, but I hope to reduce that as I become use to it. The car sits happily in the garage with it's power cord plugged in, ready to go whenever I want

 

[markjay]

Yes, the time it takes to refuel an EV can be very tedious. Now I have my Meross smart plug, I've got to navigate all the way to the app on my phone and tap a button. Whenever the sun comes out I can turn on the charger.
Takes almost 4 seconds, but I hope to reduce that as I become use to it. The car sits happily in the garage with it's power cord plugged in, ready to go whenever I want

"When the technology matures and someone develops a sun sensor that starts and stops the charging automatically, I'll get an EV, but until then, it's just not for me"

 

[Smiley]

Yes, the time it takes to refuel an EV can be very tedious. Now I have my Meross smart plug, I've got to navigate all the way to the app on my phone and tap a button. Whenever the sun comes out I can turn on the charger.
Takes almost 4 seconds, but I hope to reduce that as I become use to it. The car sits happily in the garage with it's power cord plugged in, ready to go whenever I want

I've just been and spent about a minute going to refuel the EV. I had to get out of my chair, go across to the garage and plug the car in. Nice to know that I could speed it up.

 

[clk320x]

I’ve just got home and my stopwatch shows it took me just over 2 seconds to get the cable off the wall and plug it in to the car.

Looks like even plugging in will be a thing of the past eventually…

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[Smiley]

"When the technology matures and someone develops a sun sensor that starts and stops the charging automatically, I'll get an EV, but until then, it's just not for me"

This already exists. It's called a Zappi home charger, linked to your solar panels.

 

[Dryce]

I've just been and spent about a minute going to refuel the EV. I had to get out of my chair, go across to the garage and plug the car in. Nice to know that I could speed it up.

I think it has been mentioned before - but not everybody has offroad parking or a garage.

I suggested to a colleague that he look at an EV because of household driving patterns. I'd missed the slight issue that he parks his car on street.

In the residential areas I pass through regularly it's very noticeable that you tend see EVs parked off road. Almost none parked on the street.

When I look at older relatives in the north east of Scotland and their journey patterns - even a short range EV would work out really well for them with the convenience of at home 'refuelling'. This has been the case for about the last decade - that they could be better served by a EV hatcback rather than a ICE hatchback. But none of them will touch EVs. Conservatism and cost.

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
I was a bit busy yesterday - so only just got round to reading the article about EVs and crash barriers!
One section of the article states the following:-

“The nearly 4-ton (3.6 metric ton) 2022 Rivian R1T tore through the metal guardrail and hardly slowed until hitting a concrete barrier yards away on the other side.
"We knew it was going to be an extremely demanding test of the [US'] roadside safety system," said Cody Stolle who works at the facility.
"The system was not made to handle vehicles greater than 5,000 pounds [2,268 kg]".”


So - it seems these barriers were not designed to stop heavy trucks??
I don’t think so!
Another EV bashing article to get views - IMHO!
Also it mentions that EVs are 20-50% heavier than ICE equivalents - again totally untrue!
The best selling EVs are nearly equivalent or possibly even lighter than their direct ICE equivalents (especially the high volume Tesla Model 3 & Y, for instance)
It seems that journalists are purposely creating stories with “EV” in the title to sell stories that get clicks & reads for the place they are published in.
It’s like when there is a serious coach or plane crash somewhere in the world - for the next few weeks you will see lots of other stories about coach or plane crashes appear!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Mactech]

This already exists. It's called a Zappi home charger, linked to your solar panels.

Yes, I looked at one of these prior to getting the I3. The home charger would allow me to charge to car quicker at about 7kWh, but that is almost double the output of my solar system, so at best, it would still be getting half the energy from the grid.
The fact that the i3 is small and light and therefore has a small and light battery (about 50% of most EV's) means I have never had to charge for more than about 12 hours on a domestic 13amp socket to fully refuel.
The Zappi charger was an about £1k, the Meross smart plug about £10, but that only means I save enough to 'fuel' the car for about another 50K miles.....
Can you guess which one I chose?

 

[Mactech]

Hi,
I was a bit busy yesterday - so only just got round to reading the article about EVs and crash barriers!
One section of the article states the following:-

“The nearly 4-ton (3.6 metric ton) 2022 Rivian R1T tore through the metal guardrail and hardly slowed until hitting a concrete barrier yards away on the other side.
"We knew it was going to be an extremely demanding test of the [US'] roadside safety system," said Cody Stolle who works at the facility.
"The system was not made to handle vehicles greater than 5,000 pounds [2,268 kg]".”


So - it seems these barriers were not designed to stop heavy trucks??
I don’t think so!
Another EV bashing article to get views - IMHO!
Also it mentions that EVs are 20-50% heavier than ICE equivalents - again totally untrue!
The best selling EVs are nearly equivalent or possibly even lighter than their direct ICE equivalents (especially the high volume Tesla Model 3 & Y, for instance)
It seems that journalists are purposely creating stories with “EV” in the title to sell stories that get clicks & reads for the place they are published in.
It’s like when there is a serious coach or plane crash somewhere in the world - for the next few weeks you will see lots of other stories about coach or plane crashes appear!

Cheers
Steve

I have seen one or two shunts in motorsport, and my experience and physics shows me that speed is by far the largest factor in how a barrier reacts to impact. The energy to be absorbed is proportional to the mass, but the square of the velocity.
You can't cheat physics.