The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

I accept that since the introduction of electronic fuel injection, abs, esp etc cars from around the 80's to date have become more reliant on technology. However i would suggest the data gathering technologies built in to EV's are at another level compared to ICE's. Not least because they require plugging in to be fuelled whereas ICE do not. A whole other level of SMART tech.

Nope.

 

[markjay]

A better route would have been to impose a VED system based on weight....

Given that the ULEZ camera vandals were likely to be - in large part - local tradesmen driving older Diesel vans and pickups, do we really want to upset them even more? Not sure if it will go down well. The 'Chelsea tractors' owners, however, will pay it without an issue, though.

 

[markjay]

Not just NOx? You mean CO2 which is in no way injurious to human health?

When I said:

What would be the public's reaction if all EV subsidies were dropped, and the ICE ban cancelled, however cars were charged s ULEZ-type charge simply based on overall harmful exhaust emissions (not just NOx)?

I meant harmful to the health of the humans who breathe it.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Chelsea!???

 

[Bellow]

Lock them all up and throw away the key, for all I care.

And the same goes for all those driving around on cloned plates, or fake foreign plates, and pay nothing.

If you're asking why the DVSA and the police are not doing more to crack down on these, then my answer is that you are 100% right - but given that the police do not even catch car thieves these days, or mobile phone muggers, or shoplifters - I wouldn't hold my breath.

It is plain absurd. Coercing motorists into EURO 6 diesels many (most?) of which will be bodged as the maintenance of the emissions equipment is swerved with deletions. If/when this happens there will never be clean air. And unless nipped in the bud pronto, will create a sizable black market for emissions equipment deletions - up to and including corruption in our MOT testing stations.

 

[Bellow]

When I said:



I meant harmful to the health of the humans who breathe it.

Particulates and UBHCs then. Unless you have another or others in mind?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Only a matter of time before the already in motion new MOTs are happening and NOX etc will be measured and they will either be off the road or paying out to get them running properly.

 

[markjay]

I accept that since the introduction of electronic fuel injection, abs, esp etc cars from around the 80's to date have become more reliant on technology. However i would suggest the data gathering technologies built in to EV's are at another level compared to ICE's. Not least because they require plugging in to be fuelled whereas ICE do not. A whole other level of SMART tech.

I agree that an S500 will not produce as many data points as an EQS, but I don't think that it's particularly meaningful. Anything that has any privacy implication, will be collected in equal measures from both cars.

As for fuelling, the Mercedes me Adapter that I used to have on my 2013 W204, knew how much fuel I bought, and where. My Shell app on my mobile phone also knew how much I paid for it. And, unless you pay cash for your fuel, which few people do these days, then it will be on your card, and your car will be on the forecourt's ANPR. Your car will also show on several public cameras driving to and from the petrol station. And your mobile phone - which presumably won't be switched off - is in fact a live tracker.

The privacy issues in respect of car ownership do merit a debate, but the additional data points collected from EVs regarding the electric motor or charging and other minor bits is neither here nor there.

 

[markjay]

Particulates and UBHCs then. Unless you have another or others in mind?

I don't know, and for the purpose of this discussion it doesn't matter, either. Any exhaust emission that is unhealthy to the humans who breathe it. You can also add brake dust and tyre particles, if these are airborne (I do not know).

 

[whitenemesis]

I agree that an S500 will not produce as many data points as an EQS, but I don't think that it's particularly meaningful. Anything that has any privacy implication, will be collected in equal measures from both cars.

As for fuelling, the Mercedes me Adapter that I used to have on my 2013 W204, knew how much fuel I bought, and where. My Shell app on my mobile phone also knew how much I paid for it. And, unless you pay cash for your fuel, which few people do these days, then it will be on your card, and your car will be on the forecourt's ANPR. Your car will also show on several public cameras driving to and from the petrol station. And your mobile phone - which presumably won't be switched off - is in fact a live tracker.

The privacy issues in respect of car ownership do merit a debate, but the additional data points collected from EVs regarding the electric motor or charging and other minor bits is neither here nor there.

Presumably an EV being recharged by a connected (online) charge point can have it's charge rate and cost adjusted depending on local variables, whereas an ICE refuelling is pretty much independent of 'interference'?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

And on the bleak windless days where EVs are recharged with electricity generated from fossil fuels?

Like this afternoon, where just 5% of UK electricity is coming from fossil fuel?

Because we're still building wind farms, solar farms and working on that cable to bring 8% of our annual electricity from Morocco

 

[markjay]

The subsidies have created the 40K price trap where manufactures take the easiest route to selling EVs - take existing battery technology and stick it in a large vehicle and take advantage of the buyers' tax concessions - with the additional bit of help where customers are herded towards change by a snarling councils and government.

Agreed in principle, although the price cap is a UK thing, and while EV manufactures might tweak their products to optimise sales in local markets, they are unlikely to develop the car based on a (shifting) local price caps. This means that manufacturers have only limited manoeuvring space when adapting the car's tech to meet the UK's specific market conditions.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Can we get back to dismissing four year old MG SUV's and estate cars as being too expensive at £10k ?

 

[Dryce]

Agreed in principle, although the price cap is a UK thing, and while EV manufactures might tweak their products to optimise sales in local markets, they are unlikely to develop the car based on a (shifting) local price caps. This means that manufacturers have only limited manoeuvring space when adapting the car's tech to meet the UK's specific market conditions.

I used the term 'trap'.

So what I meant was that manufactures were selling cars *above* that level. That tax incentives and some early adopter enthusiasm allowed them to do this. That then hinders the market due to the lack of attractive vehicles under that threshold.

 

[markjay]

Presumably an EV being recharged by a connected (online) charge point can have it's charge rate and cost adjusted depending on local variables, whereas an ICE refuelling is pretty much independent of 'interference'?

Petrol and Diesel prices vary from one petrol station to the other, as well as regional variations.

Electricity prices can vary based on location, provider, and type of charger.

And so both vary, though by different parameters.

Why are the electricity price variations of greater concern than Petrol and Diesel price variations? Is it because the price of electricity can potentially be discounted based on the identity of the car? Either way, I am not aware of any plans (or tech) to charge different cars different rates for electricity from the same charger, if this is what you are referring to.

 

[markjay]

Chelsea!???

Corrected....

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Agreed in principle, although the price cap is a UK thing, and while EV manufactures might tweak their products to optimise sales in local markets, they are unlikely to develop the car based on a (shifting) local price caps. This means that manufacturers have only limited manoeuvring space when adapting the car's tech to meet the UK's specific market conditions.

The problem with the "tax subsidy" argument is that it "forgets" that the three main reasons the UK has outrageous taxes on petrol (58%?) and car purchase are that the UK needed to curb the flow of sterling out to the Oil producing nations, limit the amount of mileage driven, and force ("encourage?") the working class back into public transport.

EV's do reduce the flow of sterling to the Arabs, Russians and (indirectly) to the Norwegians,

but EV's don't reduce congestion in urban areas, on the motorways, or at the bank holidays. They actually may increase congestion, thanks to cheap home electricity.

 

[whitenemesis]

Petrol and Diesel prices vary from one petrol station to the other, as well as regional variations.

Electricity prices can vary based on location, provider, and type of charger.

And so both vary, though by different parameters.

Why are the electricity price variations of greater concern than Petrol and Diesel price variations? Is it because the price of electricity can potentially be discounted based on the identity of the car? Either way, I am not aware of any plans (or tech) to charge different cars different rates for electricity from the same charger, if this is what you are referring to.

One can clearly see petrol/diesel prices and can choose a different outlet accordingly but the (perhaps home) EV charge point is less obvious?

 

[whitenemesis]

orce ("encourage?") the working class back into public transport.

Public transport will need to be cheap(er) reliable and accessible for the independent car user to move over to timetabled transport system

 

[BTB 500]

Either way, I am not aware of any plans (or tech) to charge different cars different rates for electricity from the same charger, if this is what you are referring to.

Doesn't that apply to all Tesla chargers that are open to other makes of car?