The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

Like this afternoon, where just 5% of UK electricity is coming from fossil fuel?

Because we're still building wind farms, solar farms and working on that cable to bring 8% of our annual electricity from Morocco

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Would you have posted that on a day where 40% of generation was from fossil fuels? Of course not. So, clearly not the windless day I referred to.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Public transport will need to be cheap(er) reliable and accessible for the independent car user to move over to timetabled transport system

Hardly.

It'll need to exist first. As we explained to those Union leaders back in the 1960's, there are no vaguely direct routes between Wales and East Anglia. The Victorian hub-based rail network if fine for getting in and out of London, but it's still useless for getting from Southampton to Bristol. Want to get to work in the morning at 7am? Public transport isn't there to help you.

Returning to my point, it's one of three reasons why we take £40 billion OFF motorists in order to pour £17 billion a year into subsidising trains as well as a billion or two into subsidising buses.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Corrected....

Pity....I like the idea of a "Cheese Tractor"........

.....and yes this really is a life size tractor made of real cheese...LIdl PR stunt! ULEZ exempt??

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Would you have posted that on a day where 40% of generation was from fossil fuels? Of course not. So, clearly not the windless day I referred to.

What day would that be?

You raised the point today. Cold isn't it?

Fourth quarter 2023, it was 33% from fossil fuels. A number that drops every quarter as more renewable resources come on line

 

[BPD07]

Can we get back to dismissing four year old MG SUV's and estate cars as being too expensive at £10k ?

Ahhh that explains the subterranean Residual Value figure

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

No.
Someone in a position financially able to buy a new car should not be subsidised in that purchase. That subsidy will inevitably come from the pockets of those who cannot afford to buy new. Morally wrong and further fuel for those who would prefer to see the whole carbon reduction project skewered.
Selling advice I was given: Sell benefits. If you cannot sell your product at a price the customer regards as good value then the product is in some way flawed.

You aren't subsidising the guy who buys a new Tesla Y

You're just not taxing him as hard as you would if he bought a new ICE. You still take £10,000 in VAT from the sale of a £50k Tesla Y, plus the taxes on employment, National insurance, property usage, and importation. (OK, it's a bit more complicated than that because corporate taxation, and long term taxation on fuel usage, but the sum is substantial)

The Government isn't giving him money, it's just not taking as much as it would had he taken another path.

 

[clk320x]

Doesn't that apply to all Tesla chargers that are open to other makes of car?

You can pay a small monthly subscription to pay the same rates as Teslas, a fair compromise to access (some UK sites) of the best charging network.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Ahhh that explains the subterranean Residual Value figure

Outrageous, innit ?

It's like Ford, Vauxhall, Renault or FIAT type depreciation / residuals.

OK, the MG would have been cheaper in the first place, but still

 

[Bellow]

Fourth quarter 2023, it was 33% from fossil fuels.

Only 6.6 times greater than your favoured 5% figure.

A number that drops every quarter as more renewable resources come on line

And increasing deployment of AI will eat into that.

 

[Bellow]

You aren't subsidising the guy who buys a new Tesla Y

You're just not taxing him as hard as you would if he bought a new ICE. You still take £10,000 in VAT from the sale of a £50k Tesla Y, plus the taxes on employment, National insurance, property usage, and importation. (OK, it's a bit more complicated than that because corporate taxation, and long term taxation on fuel usage, but the sum is substantial)

The Government isn't giving him money, it's just not taking as much as it would had he taken another path.

The question I answered was not specifically about company cars but did refer specifically to subsidies. When subsidies have been available to private motorists for EV purchase, they were of the cash up front type - not a reduction in taxation.
The point being debated was how to increase the uptake of EVs in the private (not corporate) motoring sector. Nonetheless, reduced taxation is still a subsidy.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Only 6.6 times greater than your favoured 5% figure.

And increasing deployment of AI will eat into that.

6.6 times greater than this afternoon's figure.

As I said, you've forgotten that we're bringing on solar, wind, nuclear and other renewable power so that we don't have to pay other countries so much to provide us with fossil fuel for the grid as well as for 34 million vehicles.

Why do you think that your home's AI bill will be significant, relative to your annual electricity and fuel bill ? Do you build a lot of AI models, yourself?

Do you not acknowledge that AI is only used to increase productivity, so that people don't need to travel and consume as much energy to complete the same tasks?

How many typists and bookkeeping clerks would we have "burning fossil fuel" today if we hadn't automated document and record production?

 

[Bellow]

Only a matter of time before the already in motion new MOTs are happening and NOX etc will be measured and they will either be off the road or paying out to get them running properly.

Is this really going to happen? It will require MOT testing stations to install dynos.
As much as I want to see an end to air quality being sullied by bodged diesels, there really is a world of pain awaiting the diesel market if NOx testing becomes a reality.

 

[ALFAitalia]

No need for dynos....as discussed elsewhere on the forum. EGR is basically for taking care of the emissions at the idle ( though it helps at other engine speeds also). so if its working at idle I think they can safely assume it working under load to....not that they do much then as they are usually fully closed under load or you would loose all your boost through them!!
True....but largely self inflicted....anyone with EGR, DPF AdBlue deletion knows full well that its illegal, voids insurance, lumbers you with a potential £1000 fine etc....so they made that choice. Cant do the time etc......
If it takes more illegal, polluting dervs off the road I'm all for it.....and I have two fully legal dervs on the drive!!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The question I answered was not specifically about company cars but did refer specifically to subsidies. When subsidies have been available to private motorists for EV purchase, they were of the cash up front type - not a reduction in taxation.
The point being debated was how to increase the uptake of EVs in the private (not corporate) motoring sector. Nonetheless, reduced taxation is still a subsidy.

When subsidies were offered to private motorists they were cash up front. "We'll give you £3,000 off, if you buy a £40,000 EV, so you actually only pay £37,000.

Which means that you paid the car company £33,000, same as usual, and gave the Government £4,000 instead of £7,000 in VAT. Approximately.

The Government thanks you for giving it £4,000 in VAT.

Is the Government "giving you" anything? No. You're giving the Government £4,000

 

[Bellow]

When subsidies were offered to private motorists they were cash up front. "We'll give you £3,000 off, if you buy a £40,000 EV, so you actually only pay £37,000.

Which means that you paid the car company £33,000, same as usual, and gave the Government £4,000 instead of £7,000 in VAT. Approximately.

The Government thanks you for giving it £4,000 in VAT.

Is the Government "giving you" anything? No. You're giving the Government £4,000

The grants were £5k
VAT payable on £35k = £7k.

Without £5k grant.
VAT payable on £40k = £8k

Loss to treasury due to subsidy = £5k + £1k = £6k.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

And increasing deployment of AI will eat into that.

And generally, AI is getting faster and more efficient as the models get developed.

The first IBM 370 I operated was both water-cooled AND needed full air conditioning as well as a soft anti-static floor and it's own dedicated pure power supply.

My watch, which is far more powerful, doesn't need as much.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The grants were £5k
VAT payable on £35k = £7k.

Without £5k grant.
VAT payable on £40k = £8k

Loss to treasury due to subsidy = £5k + £1k = £6k.

When was that? In the March 2020 budget, the grant was £3k

Update on plug-in vehicle grants following today’s budget

Funding given to the grants for plug-in car, vans, taxis and motorcycles as part of the 2020 Budget.

www.gov.uk

 

[Bellow]

Quote:
''The plug-in car grant scheme was introduced in 2011 to support the uptake of ultra-low emission vehicles (ULEVs). It was originally set at £5,000 for all eligible ultra-low emission cars but has been slowly reduced over the years.''

Budget 2020: Plug-in grant for electric vehicles cut

The plug-in grant for certain electric vehicles (EVs) has been cut with immediate effect, after funding was secured for another three years.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The grants were £5k
VAT payable on £35k = £7k.

Without £5k grant.
VAT payable on £40k = £8k

Loss to treasury due to subsidy = £5k + £1k = £6k.

As you've just shown, by giving that "discount," the Government's just got the individual to pay £7,000 in taxes that it didn't need to.

The individual could have simply not bought,

or could have bought something cheaper.

It's a bit like a 30 year old Doctor on £100,000 a year, and being taxed at the marginal rate of 65%. She could work five days and pay 65% tax on her income for that fifth day, but the smarter move is just to work four days. (Or 40 weeks instead of 46 weeks a year)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Quote:
''The plug-in car grant scheme was introduced in 2011 to support the uptake of ultra-low emission vehicles (ULEVs). It was originally set at £5,000 for all eligible ultra-low emission cars but has been slowly reduced over the years.''

Budget 2020: Plug-in grant for electric vehicles cut

The plug-in grant for certain electric vehicles (EVs) has been cut with immediate effect, after funding was secured for another three years.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

How many people bought EV's in 2011 ?

Your article says that in 2020, the subsidy was reduced from £3,500 to £3,000. (It was set at £3,500 in 2018)

Point remains, again, that the government was encouraging people to spend roughly a third more on an EV, than they would have paid for an equivalent petrol or diesel vehicle, knowing full well that the individual would be paying as much, if not more, VAT as a result of buying the EV rather than ICE.

If you're buying an EV for £31,500 (£35,000 less £3,500) instead of a diesel for £25,000, the government is still taking more money off you.



All that said, the problem for the HM Revenue is that the EV owner is going to halve her fuel bill for the car, and all of that money is lost tax for the government.