The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

Not helped by the German recession and the collapse of their export sales to China. Germany’s in a very bad way

True, but per the Marklines link you posted total new car registrations in Germany have only dropped by 0.3% this year. The stand-out change is the percentage of EVs within that compared to the same period in 2023.

 

[BTB 500]

Most punters go into a car dealership and seek advice when buying a car.
The reason they are buying more hybrids will be the sales spin they are being told (and the generous support and commissions that the dealers are being offered by the manufacturers to push hybrid sales)
The average punter buys what the dealer pushes to them - so “customer preference” is a very subjective term, in this instance!

I doubt UK dealers are pushing hybrids harder than BEVs though. At the moment manufacturers stand to be fined £15k for every hybrid/petrol/diesel sold this year if they fail to meet the 22% BEV target in the ZEV mandate. So you would expect them to be pushing BEVs as hard as they can. The overall YTD market share for BEVs is only 17.2% which is bad enough, but that includes companies like Tesla/Polestar/etc. who sell 100% EVs. I read that Ford, Mazda and Suzuki were all running at under 5% BEV sales for 2024 so far.

 

[BTB 500]

Reported today that falling oil prices and increasing roadside charging costs have have further impacted the cost of running an EV when using public chargers.

According to Zapmap, which maps out EV charging stations, EVs would cost almost twice as much to run as petrol or diesel cars for a return trip from London to Cornwall. The data shows that a trip from London to Penzance and back again would cost £148 using rapid chargers - compared to just £77 for diesel cars, and £89 for petrol cars.

Driving an electric car can cost more than 24p per mile, compared to 12.5p per mile for diesel vehicles and 14.5 per mile for petrol cars, according to calculations from The Times. Even those that opt for the much slower public chargers pay more per mile than petrol and diesel at 16.4p per mile.

Electric car costs soar as London to Cornwall costs £71 more than petrol cars

Britain has experienced a drop in drivers switching to electric vehicles (EV) as the cost barrier mounts.

www.express.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

Germany’s in a very bad way

Not EV-specific but I just read that the German government may be looking to intervene with VW.

EMDEN, Germany, Sept 20 (Reuters) - German Economy Minister Robert Habeck said on Friday that he wants to help Volkswagen get through a period of cost-cutting without having to resort to site closures, reflecting concerns about the country's biggest carmaker.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/german-economy-minister-offers-help-volkswagen-avoid-site-closures-2024-09-20/

And yesterday Mercedes cut their profit forecast for the second time since July:

Mercedes crisis adds to German industrial woes

Having downgraded its outlook for profits in July, it did so for a second time, sending shares down 6.8 per cent in Frankfurt.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

 

[markjay]

Reported today that falling oil prices and increasing roadside charging costs have have further impacted the cost of running an EV when using public chargers.

Electric car costs soar as London to Cornwall costs £71 more than petrol cars

Britain has experienced a drop in drivers switching to electric vehicles (EV) as the cost barrier mounts.

www.express.co.uk

This is interesting.

I charge on public chargers, and prices went up and down quite sharply over the past 3 years.

It started at 24p, then at the eight of the energy price crisis it went up to 79p, and now it's down to 53p (It's actually not as straightforward as it sounds, because there were ups and down during this period going down to 37p, plus a two-tier off-peak tariff was introduced - at current off-peak is 45p).

It would be interesting to see how energy prices correlate with EV sales over the past 3 years.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Not EV-specific but I just read that the German government may be looking to intervene with VW.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/german-economy-minister-offers-help-volkswagen-avoid-site-closures-2024-09-20/

And yesterday Mercedes cut their profit forecast for the second time since July:

Mercedes crisis adds to German industrial woes

Having downgraded its outlook for profits in July, it did so for a second time, sending shares down 6.8 per cent in Frankfurt.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

For sure. No Government wants to be stuck in a recession.

But what can the German government do to rebuild Chinese demand for German Capital equipment while it’s in financial difficulties?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Not EV-specific but I just read that the German government may be looking to intervene with VW.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/german-economy-minister-offers-help-volkswagen-avoid-site-closures-2024-09-20/

And yesterday Mercedes cut their profit forecast for the second time since July:

Mercedes crisis adds to German industrial woes

Having downgraded its outlook for profits in July, it did so for a second time, sending shares down 6.8 per cent in Frankfurt.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

I had a Friday night schooner or two of dry sherry with a friend in high value used car sales yesterday.

Apparently there are shedloads of very high value nearly new German, British and Italian vehicles hanging around trying to find new homes.

Absurd quantities of low mileage Porsche & Ferrari struggling to find a buyer, even as interest rates start to come back down again.

Obviously the new Governments in the UK, France and Germany don’t help, but he’s anxious that there’s a taste sea change going on now that ‘we’ve’ got used to Influencers

I got him another large Amontillado and told him that everything will work itself out in the end

But he wasn’t convinced And neither was I.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Apparently there are shedloads of very high value nearly new German, British and Italian vehicles hanging around trying to find new homes.

It’s true. Even Ferrari are building cars without an associated customer order at the moment, and it’s not just the odd few.

At launch only repeat Ferrari customers could preorder a Purosangue and in almost no time at all dealers are now hosting test drive events for Purosangue inviting “first time” Ferrari customers.

That means that even a rough sort like me can buy a Purosangue if I can successfully pass a credit application, and there might even be an “incentive”if buying a short lead time (ie stock) car.

Remarkable shift in a short space of time.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It’s true. Even Ferrari are building cars without an associated customer order at the moment, and it’s not just the odd few.

At launch only repeat Ferrari customers could preorder a Purosangue and in almost no time at all dealers are now hosting test drive events for Purosangue inviting “first time” Ferrari customers.

That means that even a rough sort like me can buy a Purosangue if I can successfully pass a credit application, and there might even be an “incentive”if buying a short lead time (ie stock) car.

Remarkable shift in a short space of time.

A neighbour has a cute light blue Roma which has caught my eye.

I don’t know how the really compare to SL’s but a quarter off and easy availability on a pre-Reg sounds absurd to me.

 

[poormansporsche]

So I've discovered that my car is averaging 4.2 mpkwh whatever that means with zero eco buttons pressed (I think it may do regen braking itself) or any eco driving ability

I get free electrickery at work so not bothered in the slightest but just wondering what that relates to in "old money" say charging at home rates compared to a IC mpg ???

 

[markjay]

So I've discovered that my car is averaging 4.2 mpkwh whatever that means with zero eco buttons pressed (I think it may do regen braking itself) or any eco driving ability

I get free electrickery at work so not bothered in the slightest but just wondering what that relates to in "old money" say charging at home rates compared to a IC mpg ???

That's reasonably good.

In winter it could go down to 2, on motorways at speed it might be 3+, and the best you'll get while driving in city in summer is 6 to 7. So 4.2 is very reasonable.

That's on level ground, of course - driving uphill or downhill paints a very different picture (going downhill you're actually putting electricity into the battery, and at the end of the journey the battery percentage will be higher than it was at the start).

 

[ALFAitalia]

Less that 2 p per mile if you have a good home EV taffif....my neighbour pays 7p per unit (kwh) and gets about 3.5 miles per KWH out of his Pug 208 EV....hence 2 p per mile. If you can get a similar price for the leccy and actually do get 4.2 miles you are well under 2 pence per mile. Compare that to my nice economical 2.0L derv I just sold which did about 45 mpg average.......but that still a about 14 pence per mile.....so over 7 times as expensive.....or the same as about 300 miles per gallon!!! Charge at home as its cheap as chips.....use public charging....and its pretty expensive.....often far more expensive than running my ALFA derv.....which is the main reason over 80 percent of all charging is done overnight at home and nearly every EV charge point I see is empty.

 

[BTB 500]

So I've discovered that my car is averaging 4.2 mpkwh whatever that means with zero eco buttons pressed (I think it may do regen braking itself) or any eco driving ability

I get free electrickery at work so not bothered in the slightest but just wondering what that relates to in "old money" say charging at home rates compared to a IC mpg ???

So that's 1/4.2 = 0.24 kWh per mile. For home charging multiply by the cost per kWh you pay ... standard tariff around 23-24p per kWh, special 'smart' or overnight tariffs as low as 7p per kWh. Then multiply by about 1.25 to take account of charging losses (you consume more kWh from the mains than actually ends up in the car battery).

Our OVO standard tariff is 23.82p per kWh, so that would give approx. 7.2p per mile.

Unleaded is currently 129.9 pence per litre, so 590.5 pence for a gallon. Divide by 7.2p per mile gives 82 miles (per gallon). You might get 60 mpg or so (?) from a small ICE hatchback, so a home charged EV is definitely cheaper even if you're not on a special tariff.

 

[BTB 500]

my neighbour pays 7p per unit (kwh) and gets about 3.5 miles per KWH out of his Pug 208 EV....hence 2 p per mile.

More like 2.5p per mile after charging losses. Still very cheap though.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Less that 2 p per mile if you have a good home EV taffif....my neighbour pays 7p per unit (kwh) and gets about 3.5 miles per KWH out of his Pug 208 EV....hence 2 p per mile. If you can get a similar price for the leccy and actually do get 4.2 miles you are well under 2 pence per mile. Compare that to my nice economical 2.0L derv I just sold which did about 45 mpg average.......but that still a about 14 pence per mile.....so over 7 times as expensive.....or the same as about 300 miles per gallon!!! Charge at home as its cheap as chips.....use public charging....and its pretty expensive.....often far more expensive than running my ALFA derv.....which is the main reason over 80 percent of all charging is done overnight at home and nearly every EV charge point I see is empty.

To be fair, another reason why every commercial charger is empty is that it takes a very short time to top up an EV.

Topping up in a petrol station, you can be done in the time that it takes to "take a comfort break, drink a coffee, and check your messages."

But cost ? Who runs a car to keep their costs down?

If we did we'd all be running around in a five year old A, B, or C class.

 

[poormansporsche]

Cheers.

So basic maths, my 2 year lease deal will cost me 6 grand all in with everything (bar whatever they charge for EV tax from next year) with my free work charging.

My just sold modern classic cost me 4 grand 9 months ago and sold for 1600 quid to a WBAC type place due to a stem problem that meant I was putting a litre of oil in every 300 miles.

The tax was 410 odd quid a year, 60 quid every 8 days on juice, needed 4 new tyres so say 600 quid, 2 services say 500 quid.

So if it actually survived the next 2 years (unlikely) depreciation probably would have been another 1200 quid.

So IC 2 year total cost

Fuel £5475, tax £800, servicing £500, tyres £600, AA £400, depreciation £1200.

So total over 8 grand !!!!

So the EV is 2 grand less for a brand new car.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Cheers.

So basic maths, my 2 year lease deal will cost me 6 grand all in with everything (bar whatever they charge for EV tax from next year) with my free work charging.

My just sold modern classic cost me 4 grand 9 months ago and sold for 1600 quid to a WBAC type place due to a stem problem that meant I was putting a litre of oil in every 300 miles.

The tax was 410 odd quid a year, 60 quid every 8 days on juice, needed 4 new tyres so say 600 quid, 2 services say 500 quid.

So if it actually survived the next 2 years (unlikely) depreciation probably would have been another 1200 quid.

So IC 2 year total cost

Fuel £5475, tax £800, servicing £500, tyres £600, AA £400, depreciation £1200.

So total over 8 grand !!!!

So the EV is 2 grand less for a brand new car.

Don’t disagree with your basic argument but what makes you think you won’t need AA or a fresh set of tyres? (Best to clarify)

On the old car you probably didn’t worry about dents, but what might they cost on this one?

 

[clk320x]

Don’t disagree with your basic argument but what makes you think you won’t need AA or a fresh set of tyres? (Best to clarify)

On the old car you probably didn’t worry about dents, but what might they cost on this one?

A lot of lease deals come with tyres etc included, but also it’s likely he won’t cover enough miles within the 2 years to need any regardless.

Most new cars within warranty come with some kind of roadside assistance. It may still be advisable to have your own though, perhaps through a bank account benefit.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

A lot of lease deals come with tyres etc included, but also it’s likely he won’t cover enough miles within the 2 years to need any regardless.

Most new cars within warranty come with some kind of roadside assistance. It may still be advisable to have your own though, perhaps through a bank account benefit.

All fair, I’m just trying to make sure the numbers are right.

I’m reminded of a close relative who’s brassic, but always runs a new base model Fiesta on Finance because, in her mind, it’s cheaper than running an unreliable old car that she has no idea to maintain.

Which it is and it isn’t.

But saving nearly a grand a year with a new EV running on free electricity rather than unreliable old ICE for heavy commuting? No contest.

(And that’s before Labour put the price of diesel and car tax back up again in October)

 

[poormansporsche]

Don’t disagree with your basic argument but what makes you think you won’t need AA or a fresh set of tyres? (Best to clarify)

On the old car you probably didn’t worry about dents, but what might they cost on this one?

Extra Breakdown on top of manufacturers service included in my lease but my AA that I did have had 500 quids worth of parts and labour insurance so no longer required. Tyres not included in my lease but as my old bangers tyres all were near the minimum they would have needed changing just to match the new cars levels !

6 grand for 2 years sounds a lot for no equity but it soon mounts up with a banger ......)

Although I will probably end up paying to have dings removed at the end as the "free" chargers at work are a free for all tiny sized spaces battleground !!!! (The 4 "Corporate" spaces are 50% larger and coded, grrrrrr)