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The EV fact thread

A lot of lease deals come with tyres etc included, but also it’s likely he won’t cover enough miles within the 2 years to need any regardless.

Most new cars within warranty come with some kind of roadside assistance. It may still be advisable to have your own though, perhaps through a bank account benefit.

My lease came with a maintenance pack (but there's very little maintenance on these cars anyway), the VED (which was nil for the first 3 years anyway), and tyres (which are only down to 6mm.... and the car is going back next year). Roadside Assistance was included with the warranty. It also came with separate tyre insurance and smart-repair cover - so no cost to me for minor dents and scratches or a tyre blow-up.

However.... it's a business lease. This means that my BIK is calculated based on the car's RRP. All these additional costs are just business expenses or salary sacrifice, but in either case they are not taxable. Not sure I would have included all these if taking out a finance deal privately, though.
 
Extra Breakdown on top of manufacturers service included in my lease but my AA that I did have had 500 quids worth of parts and labour insurance so no longer required. Tyres not included in my lease but as my old bangers tyres all were near the minimum they would have needed changing just to match the new cars levels !

6 grand for 2 years sounds a lot for no equity but it soon mounts up with a banger ......)

Although I will probably end up paying to have dings removed at the end as the "free" chargers at work are a free for all tiny sized spaces battleground !!!! (The 4 "Corporate" spaces are 50% larger and coded, grrrrrr)
All fine and broadly as expected. I’m just trying to make the financials more “like for like.”

Folks “think” that going EV is just about saving , or not, saving a grand on gmfuel a year. As you’ve rightly pointed out, it’s more complex than that, especially for anyone owning a higher mileage ICE that needs this or that.

BTW Great advert for the new £15k Dacia Spring EV. I wonder how that will go down?

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All fine and broadly as expected. I’m just trying to make the financials more “like for like.”

Folks “think” that going EV is just about saving , or not, saving a grand on gmfuel a year. As you’ve rightly pointed out, it’s more complex than that, especially for anyone owning a higher mileage ICE that needs this or that.

BTW Great advert for the new £15k Dacia Spring EV. I wonder how that will go down?

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Just buy a reliable brand... that's all there is to it, really. I.e., avoid anything from JLR, or Porsche, etc. It the same advice as for ICE cars, really.
 

There's not wrong, but it's only half the story.

The EV cost-per-mile is the journos 'gift that keeps on giving'.

While (almost) everyone buys petrol and diesel from petrol station, electricity prices range from nil (for those who have access to free chargers), through 7p (for those charging at home on night tariff arrf), to 79p (for those who charge from superfast chargers at motorway services).

This allows journos to always find the figure that will support the point they're trying to make (a bit like fanatics do with religion scriptures).
 
Petrol and diesel uptake fell by -10.1% and -7.3% respectively, but together these fuel types still represented more than half (56.8%) of all new car uptake in August. Plug-in hybrid (PHEV) registrations declined -12.3%, with a 6.8% share, but hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) uptake increased, by 36.1%, to take 13.8% of the market.

Battery electric vehicle (BEV) registrations, meanwhile, rose 10.8% thanks to heavy discounting by manufacturers over the summer and a raft of new models attracting buyers. Market share in August reached 22.6%, the highest for a month since December 2022, when BEVs commanded 32.9% of all new cars reaching the road.1
Source: SMNT News, 5 September 2024

The above relates to the month of August 2024. Paints a different picture to what’s often talked about. No doubt influenced by discounting and pre-registrations but that’s nothing new nor unique to one fuel type, that’s just the car business doing what the car business is doing.
 
Source: SMNT News, 5 September 2024

The above relates to the month of August 2024. Paints a different picture to what’s often talked about. No doubt influenced by discounting and pre-registrations but that’s nothing new nor unique to one fuel type, that’s just the car business doing what the car business is doing.

An ICE car that comes off a business lease at 2 years old and sold at 50% of the original RRP is a bargain, a steal, a must have, go and get it quickly before someone else does.

An EV that comes off a business lease at 2 years old and sold at 30% of the original RRP demonstrates how bad and undesirable EVs are, avoid like the plague.

:doh:
 
Does anyone have a membership for The Times to read the actual article that Tge Express article is based upon?


Lazy journalism quoting another news outlet. Lots of them do it.

Mike Hawes, the chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers, told The Times: “It’s tough out there. Levels of demand are much, much softer."

It would be interesting to know whether this comment related to BEV as implied by The Express or the market as a whole.
 
There's not wrong, but it's only half the story.

The EV cost-per-mile is the journos 'gift that keeps on giving'.

While (almost) everyone buys petrol and diesel from petrol station, electricity prices range from nil (for those who have access to free chargers), through 7p (for those charging at home on night tariff arrf), to 79p (for those who charge from superfast chargers at motorway services).

This allows journos to always find the figure that will support the point they're trying to make (a bit like fanatics do with religion scriptures).
It's one of the reasons I generally don't pay much attention to about 90% of what comes from "The Media".
The negativity is shoulder-slumpingly wearing.
 
Does anyone have a membership for The Times to read the actual article that Tge Express article is based upon?


Lazy journalism quoting another news outlet. Lots of them do it.



It would be interesting to know whether this comment related to BEV as implied by The Express or the market as a whole.



"The average electric car travels 3.3 miles for every kWh of electricity used, meaning Level 3 DC fast chargers currently cost the equivalent of 24.1p ($0.50) per mile while slower chargers cost 16.4p ($0.40) per mile. The cost per mile of an average diesel-powered car is 12.5p ($0.31), while for an average petrol car it is 14.5p ($0.36) a mile. However, at-home charging is much less expensive. The current price of electricity in the UK is 22.4p ($0. 28) per kWh, less than a third the cost of using a Level 3 DC fast charger. Off peak charging at home costs just 6.7p (0.084) per kWh, making the operating cost for a typical electric car 2p ($0.025) per mile — less than a tenth the cost of a diesel-powered car. Where is the headline for that factoid?"
 
Just buy a reliable brand... that's all there is to it, really. I.e., avoid anything from JLR, or Porsche, etc. It the same advice as for ICE cars, really.
For sure, and Dacia has an excellent reputation as a basic, reliable ICE car.

But how will that £15k 135 mile range go down, when you can pick up a larger and well-proven three year old e-Golf for less money?
 
For sure, and Dacia has an excellent reputation as a basic, reliable ICE car.

But how will that £15k 135 mile range go down, when you can pick up a larger and well-proven three year old e-Golf for less money?

Again, very difficult to answer.

Depending on your circumstances, the overall running cost might actually make the Golf the more expensive choice.

E.g., regarding EV ownership, if you have cheap electricity, pay next to nothing on servicing, low VED, Congestion Charge exemption (in London), no brake replacement costs, plus no repair costs because the Dacia will have the new car warranty, etc., then the logical choice might actually be the Dacia.

I didn't actually do the math, just saying that the answer to your question isn't obvious.

In fact, especially regarding electricity costs, IF you have access to cheap (or even free) electricity, then the more the annual mileage, the more the Dacia becomes the no-brainer choice.
 
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Does anyone have a membership for The Times to read the actual article that Tge Express article is based upon?


Lazy journalism quoting another news outlet. Lots of them do it.



It would be interesting to know whether this comment related to BEV as implied by The Express or the market as a whole.
Britain’s public charging network is so expensive that the cost of driving an electric car is now up to twice the price of running a petrol or diesel vehicle.

The UK has more than 12,500 rapid or ultra-rapid charging stations — a 40 per cent increase on a year ago — but data shared with The Times shows they cost an average of 80p per kilowatt hour (kWh), making the switch to electric cars prohibitively expensive for motorists who do not have access to cheaper at-home charging.

Prices at rapid chargers have increased 5 per cent over the past year, according to ZapMap, which supplied the data. Over the same period, the wholesale cost of electricity has fallen by 30 per cent.

Public chargers are defined as rapid if they deliver at least 50 kW of power, allowing a battery to fully recharge in about 30 minutes. However, the data shows that even those who choose slower public chargers are still paying more per mile than petrol and diesel drivers, following recent falls in the cost of oil.

Industry leaders have raised concerns that the cost of public chargers, as well as the higher cost of electric vehicles, is delaying the transition to greener motoring.

The Office for Zero Emission Vehicles is the key body within the Department of Transport that creates and monitors policies on public chargers. The government has outlined no plans to regulate the price of electric chargers.

However, the latest figures show that sales of electric cars have stagnated, accounting for just 17.2 per cent of all new registrations so far this year, down from a high of 18.7 per cent in the second half of 2022.

In Europe, sales of electric cars are performing even worse, with registrations down 44 per cent in August alone.

Mike Hawes, the chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers, said: “It is tough out there. Levels of demand are much, much softer.”

While electric cars are significantly more efficient and less polluting than petrol or diesel vehicles, the high cost of chargers — and the falling price of oil — can make going green an expensive choice for those who do not have access to charging at home.

The average electric car travels 3.3 miles for every kWh of electricity used, meaning rapid and ultra-rapid chargers currently cost the equivalent of 24.1p per mile while slower chargers cost 16.4p per mile.

However, the average diesel travels 43 miles per gallon, meaning a cost of 12.5p per mile at current forecourt prices. The average petrol car costs 14.5p a mile.

Screenshot 2024-09-22 at 13.51.34.png

This means a return journey from London to Penzance would cost £148 in an electric car using rapid chargers, compared with £77 in a diesel car and £89 using petrol.

However, at-home charging works out much cheaper. The current price of electricity under the regulator’s cap is 22.4p per kWh, less than a third the average rapid charger.

This means that charging at home costs 7.8p per mile. Homeowners who have a smart meter can take advantage of even cheaper off-peak electricity and charge their cars for even less. The cheapest night-time electricity rate — known as Economy 7 because it operates for seven hours between midnight and 7am — charges just 6.7p per kWh, meaning a cost of just 2p per mile.

The problem is that nearly half of Britain’s households live in flats or terraced properties, meaning most have no driveway or garage to allow at-home charging. In Britain’s biggest cities, three quarters of households live in flats or terraced homes.

Running a cable across the pavement to charge a car from a terraced home, even with a cable protector, is not permitted under the Highways Act because it may present a hazard or an obstruction. Some councils say residents who charge their cars this way could be fined and be liable for any accidents they cause.

The AA says the cost of rapid charging is a factor in why the take-up of electric cars has stagnated, along with the extra cost of buying the cars in the first place.

The motoring organisation, along with several other industry groups, believes one of the answers is for the government to synchronise the level of VAT on chargers with the rate levied on at-home power. Domestic electricity has a VAT rate of 5 per cent whereas chargers outside the home face the normal rate of 20 per cent.

Thom Groot, founder of the Electric Car Scheme, said: “We need to keep stimulating demand with incentives and supporting consumers in making the switch. The fact that people who charge at home pay less VAT than those who use public chargers is unfair.”
The Society of Motor Manufacturers also wants the government to look at cutting VAT on electric car sales or exempting electric vehicles from the new “luxury car supplement”, which will add a higher rate of road tax to about two thirds of electric cars because they cost more than £40,000.

It estimates that halving the VAT rate on sales would boost the number of electric cars sold by a quarter of a million vehicles a year.

Some councils are also looking at making charging at home easier, by allowing homeowners to apply to have a channel installed in the pavement outside their homes for a cable to run along. But the cost is likely to be high and a deterrent to many.

Many in the motoring industry believe that without a transformation in the cost of electric motoring — either through cheaper vehicles or more widespread access to cheaper charging — there is little hope that car makers will be able to meet government targets on the number of electric cars they must sell.

Under the zero-emission vehicle mandate, 22 per cent of car sales this year must be electric vehicles. This rises to 28 per cent next year, and increases incrementally until 80 per cent of all sales must be electric by 2030.

Car makers that fail to meet the target face fines of £15,000 per diesel or petrol vehicle they sell, although they can avoid the fines by buying credits from fully-electric car makers, such as Tesla, or those who have exceeded the target.

Labour has pledged to ban the sale of all petrol and diesel cars by 2030, meaning that the remaining 20 per cent are likely to be hybrid cars, which are part-electric but also have a fuel motor.

Research published this week by Auto Trader illustrates the scale of the challenge facing the industry. It found that the average electric car costs nearly a third more than the equivalent petrol or diesel model, but nine in ten buyers say they will not pay more for an electric vehicle.

Jamie Caple, the boss of Car Quay, an independent used-car dealership near Derby, said selling electric cars was stressful and would often backfire.

“I’ve lost money, had customers asking for their money back because of range issues and ended up in battles with manufacturers over the claimed range versus the real-world battery life,” he said. “And they are hard to sell.”

Cape said that as well as the extra costs, Rishi Sunak’s government delaying a ban on petrol and diesel cars until 2035 had also been a problem.

He said: “The government flip-flopping has been a big one. When the last government pushed it back to 2035, people definitely thought ‘I can delay getting an EV’, and pushed back making the switch.”

Hugh Bladon, the chairman of the Alliance of British Drivers, believes the government will ultimately have to give up banning petrol and diesel sales.

He said: “This is for several reasons, not the least of which is the sheer impossibility for vast numbers of people being able to charge their cars. Imagine high-rise flats, roads with no parking and so on.

“In the end, hybrid will be the answer. With a range of 40 or so miles the local running will be on electric with the long-distance journey no longer a problem. How can anybody not see that this is the answer?”

Other councils are trying to expand the number of car chargers available inside lamp posts, although these only have the capacity to deliver a slower charge. Some are also trying to encourage community charging schemes.
 
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I won't do the full anti-tabloid rant, but I'd highlight that the Industry is lobbying, for free money by suggesting that they need it to convert all 30+ million vehicles in the UK.

As Gordon Brown proved - stupidly - 25 years ago, you can convert the country from virtually 100% petrol to diesel just by putting incentives out there on new car sales and minor incentives on fuel prices. That's all that's needed with EV's as well. Get the manufacturers - especially Asian suppliers - to produce EV's that people can afford, understand and use, and they'll get sold.

Let European and US motor manufacturers continue to produce obese, overly complex, irritating and unreliable EV's that people can't afford, or understand, and we'll continue to have a problem.

And also watch the price of commercial charging drop, once there's more that enough capacity out there, and proper competition on price.

Charger prices are opaque at the moment. "Get your electricity here. And when you do, we'll tell you the price."
 
Britain’s public charging network is so expensive that the cost of driving an electric car is now up to twice the price of running a petrol or diesel vehicle.
"Up to"... he he. That's an old marketing trick.

I just did the math for my two cars. The 1.6L Petrol Suzuki currently costs me 15p per mile. The IONIQ 5 costs me 11p per mile (with 'losses' - call it 13p per mile). That's energy costs only, ignoring all other running costs.

Of course some people will pay significantly more for their electricity, but others will pay significantly less.

And yes, a milk float is more economic than a C63, and petrol lawn mower is more economic than a Model S Plaid. But what does this data mean? Absolutely nothing... :D
 
As Gordon Brown proved - stupidly - 25 years ago, you can convert the country from virtually 100% petrol to diesel just by putting incentives out there on new car sales and minor incentives on fuel prices. That's all that's needed with EV's as well. Get the manufacturers - especially Asian suppliers - to produce EV's that people can afford, understand and use, and they'll get sold.

That's not entirely accurate. The Diesel tax benefits (just like the current EV tax benefits) largely affected only cars leased on a business lease, although there was some additional minor saving on VED due to Diesel's lower CO2 emissions.

The fact it that for many years, frugal-minded people (no particular ethnicity or locality mentioned...) bought Diesel cars "because they're cheaper to run".

This fallacy carried over even when Diesels started to have Turbos, complex high-pressure fuel injection systems, and a myrad of emission control systems, making repairs potentially very expensive. Not to mention that around 10 years ago Diesel fuel actually became more expensive than petrol.

To this day, many people will still buy Diesel cars "because they're cheaper to run". This is in spite of Diesel engines becoming more complex, less reliable, and much more expensive to repair.

The last time that the idea that Diesel cars are cheaper to run was actually true, was probably somewhere in the mid-nineties.
 
"Up to"... he he. That's an old marketing trick.

I just did the math for my two cars. The 1.6L Petrol Suzuki currently costs me 15p per mile. The IONIQ 5 costs me 11p per mile (with 'losses' - call it 13p per mile). That's energy costs only, ignoring all other running costs.

Of course some people will pay significantly more for their electricity, but others will pay significantly less.

And yes, a milk float is more economic than a C63, and petrol lawn mower is more economic than a Model S Plaid. But what does this data mean? Absolutely nothing... :D

Aye, and it would be 2.5p a mile for me, pessimistically, off the home tap. But more given that "maybe" I'd annually do 1,000 miles off a commercial charger.

But my issue remains finding a ve-hic-le I'd want to drive / own, at the right price.

And then there's the "wife" factor.
 
In my case it was actually Mrs MJ who spotted and chose the IONIQ 5. I was looking at the ID.4 at the time....
The "wife" factor that I had in mind is that, in general, it appears - to me - that it's the wife who's the most cautious about switching to EV.

Not just Mrs MiW, but amongst my friends & acquaintances.

Presumably because they know it will immediately catch fire, run out of electricity, and leave them stranded up Snowdon during a snow storm.

(Not just because you can't plug an EV in to the electricity if its been raining because you'll obviously electrocute yourself)
 
That's not entirely accurate. The Diesel tax benefits (just like the current EV tax benefits) largely affected only cars leased on a business lease, although there was some additional minor saving on VED due to Diesel's lower CO2 emissions.

The fact it that for many years, frugal-minded people (no particular ethnicity or locality mentioned...) bought Diesel cars "because they're cheaper to run".

This fallacy carried over even when Diesels started to have Turbos, complex high-pressure fuel injection systems, and a myrad of emission control systems, making repairs potentially very expensive. Not to mention that around 10 years ago Diesel fuel actually became more expensive than petrol.

To this day, many people will still buy Diesel cars "because they're cheaper to run". This is in spite of Diesel engines becoming more complex, less reliable, and much more expensive to repair.

The last time that the idea that Diesel cars are cheaper to run was actually true, was probably somewhere in the mid-nineties.

I'll gently disagree on this. I ran a 400 vehicle company car fleet in the late eighties / early 90's, back when diesel was still strictly agricultural. My memory is that Brussels was pushing for the diesel transition across Europe in the nineties as part of an objective of reducing emissions by 25% between 1998 and 2008, Then, as now, the logic was to lead from company cars in the UK, with diesel being touted as a more economical and efficient solution. Much maligned Gordon was simply following the EU line, using the levers of both company car taxation, and diesel fuel dusties. "We" at the time were calling it out as horse sheet because of the initial capital cost and subsequent unreliability, especially for vehicles doing short runs and small total annual mileages. Which the government ignored, in its wisdom. "We" were right.

1998 "Commission and ACEA agree on CO2 emissions from cars

The European Commission has adopted a communication on the future agreement with the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA) on CO2 emissions from passenger cars. In the agreement, ACEA commits itself to achieve a target of 140 g/km CO2 emissions for the average of new cars sold in the European Union (EU) by 2008 representing a reduction of about 25%. ...." (full detail in the press release below)


From company cars, the diesel common rail "technology" spread into smaller cars such as the VW's, BMW's, Renaults and so on in the early noughties., as car companies "proved" that such diesels could be efficient on emissions, consumption and reliability. They lied, of course.
 
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