The EV fact thread

[Retaxus]

That's not entirely accurate. The Diesel tax benefits (just like the current EV tax benefits) largely affected only cars leased on a business lease, although there was some additional minor saving on VED due to Diesel's lower CO2 emissions.

The fact it that for many years, frugal-minded people (no particular ethnicity or locality mentioned...) bought Diesel cars "because they're cheaper to run".

This fallacy carried over even when Diesels started to have Turbos, complex high-pressure fuel injection systems, and a myrad of emission control systems, making repairs potentially very expensive. Not to mention that around 10 years ago Diesel fuel actually became more expensive than petrol.

To this day, many people will still buy Diesel cars "because they're cheaper to run". This is in spite of Diesel engines becoming more complex, less reliable, and much more expensive to repair.

The last time that the idea that Diesel cars are cheaper to run was actually true, was probably somewhere in the mid-nineties.

Diesel cars are much cheaper to run. I have a W204 c220d six speed manual with the OM651 engine.
It does around 70mpg with £20 road tax, you cannot run a petrol car as cheaply as that. It is now getting on for 100,000 miles, engine repair cost ZERO.

 

[markjay]

Diesel cars are much cheaper to run. I have a W204 c220d six speed manual with the OM651 engine.
It does around 70mpg with £20 road tax, you cannot run a petrol car as cheaply as that. It is now getting on for 100,000 miles, engine repair cost ZERO.

That's statistics on a sample pool size of.... one.

Perhaps you've just been lucky?

 

[ALFAitalia]

My derv ALFA was by far the cheapest car to run I've ever has....out of around 35 to 40 cars.... even when I stopped doing the big miles. One of the most reliable too. Clearly they are cheaper to run or fleet managers would not have been forcing them upon their staff for the last 20 years or so! Those guys don't miss a trick ! It's only when you get cars with Adblue it starts to fall down. In case you have not looked under the bonnet of a modern petrol recently they also have most of the items mentioned in your list bolted to them these days.

 

[Dryce]

This fallacy carried over even when Diesels started to have Turbos, complex high-pressure fuel injection systems, and a myrad of emission control systems, making repairs potentially very expensive. Not to mention that around 10 years ago Diesel fuel actually became more expensive than petrol.

Thing is it wasn't a fallacy once people bought in to diesel as 'being cheaper to run' then diesel cars became more expensive and depreciated more slowly. And we had the madness of VED on a three litre turbo-diesel that made a high end BMW cheaper than a regular family petrol car to tax. And in that sense a diesel wasn't so much cheaper but more attractive as a package for many.

The last time that the idea that Diesel cars are cheaper to run was actually true, was probably somewhere in the mid-nineties.

I think ownership of diesels became optimal around the mid to late 2000's and this lasted into the 2010s.

The slamming of the brakes on the diesel market happened over the last decade. 2014 gave us 'dieselgate' on the emissions tests and engine management system tweaks and then NO emissions started becoming the 'thing' instead of CO2.

 

[Dryce]

That's statistics on a sample pool size of.... one.

Perhaps you've just been lucky?

I think the issue is that there are potentially high repair costs - but only a minority actually experience the need for them.

So it's more about not being unlucky than being lucky - in the sense being 'lucky' is the norm.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As I mentioned earlier, the mistake with diesels, which we identified in the mid 1990's, was that diesels can be very problematic and unreliable "IF" you use them for short-runs, which many do. Taxi drivers absolutely 100% agree that diesel is fabulous for long journeys and long-running, provided they're maintained. (See most non-ULEZ taxi ranks).

Where the EU got stuffed was when people started using diesels for the school run and shopping. Without getting the diesels up to proper temperature, the economy not there, the urban pollution was far worse than they'd hoped to achieve. Which is how we got Khan's ULEZ tax on diesels registered before 2015, while petrol vehicles a full twelve years older go untaxed.

 

[BTB 500]

6 grand for 2 years sounds a lot for no equity but it soon mounts up with a banger ......)

Maybe I missed it but did you factor in the residual value that your IC car still has after 2 years? As you say, at the end of a lease you have nothing.

A comparison with an equivalent 2 year lease on a small petrol car would be interesting, particularly with the recent drop in fuel prices?

 

[TC350]

My lease came with a maintenance pack (but there's very little maintenance on these cars anyway), the VED (which was nil for the first 3 years anyway), and tyres (which are only down to 6mm.... and the car is going back next year). Roadside Assistance was included with the warranty. It also came with separate tyre insurance and smart-repair cover - so no cost to me for minor dents and scratches or a tyre blow-up.

However.... it's a business lease. This means that my BIK is calculated based on the car's RRP. All these additional costs are just business expenses or salary sacrifice, but in either case they are not taxable. Not sure I would have included all these if taking out a finance deal privately, though.

My mate recently ordered a new Porsche Taycan that he's getting on lease. He said he's looking forward to having everything covered together. It's the convenience more than anything else. He doesn't have such luxuries with his Cobra, Ferrari and rally Peugeots!

 

[poormansporsche]

Maybe I missed it but did you factor in the residual value that your IC car still has after 2 years? As you say, at the end of a lease you have nothing.

A comparison with an equivalent 2 year lease on a small petrol car would be interesting, particularly with the recent drop in fuel prices?

Yes I factored in my car being worth 200 quid scrap as the chances of it surviving another 2 years with it's oil drink problem is zero.

I will do some figures on the 1.2 Swift that I did have on order before I cancelled and ordered the Leaf.



I've always run bangers, it was happy days when you could buy a nice W202 for 750 quid and if it died you just bought another.

Obviously the ULEZ and COVID has screwed that up though.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I've always run bangers, it was happy days when you could buy a nice W202 for 750 quid and if it died you just bought another.
Obviously the ULEZ and COVID has screwed that up though.

Yes, inflation's terrible.

 

[markjay]

Yes, inflation's terrible.

View attachment 161654

78,500 miles... the M271 is said to go belly-up at 80,000

 

[ALFAitalia]

Sold mine at about 160,000 miles....no issues.

 

[markjay]

Sold mine at about 160,000 miles....no issues.

You dodged TWO bullets...

 

[pioneercollector]

Just an update on the new Nissan Townstar Acenta + Electric vans we now have that replaced the original fleet i purchased in 2015 / 16.
The range does seem to be around the 188 the WLTP suggests and often exceeds it.
The KW/M is around 3.4 so all good there.
These are commercial vans and often carry loads of crates of books / physical confidential documents weighing around 650KG.

I am happy with these vans, they work for what we do, and to be fair the MK1 Nissan ENV 200 did very well indeed - The final MK1 van is about to be replaced in November ( Nissan do not have anymore LWB Townstars in stock ) and this van has just tipped the 100,000 miles trouble free.

They also charge very quickly with our bank of 8Kw charging points, much quicker than the older vans. Although we could just be imagining this as the new vans always tend to be 50% charged still when returning to HQ, whereas the old ones could be an **** clenching 5% or less

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

78,500 miles... the M271 is said to go belly-up at 80,000

So it's an EV then ?

My mistake, I thought it was a petrol

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Sold mine at about 160,000 miles....no issues.

it wasn't this one, by any chance? Now on 217,000

 

[190]

Interesting view on the way for a manufacturer to go about developing and successfully selling EV's in a changeable market. While VW have come unstuck with their bespoke approach to building an EV, BMW have largely treated the electric motor as just another power train to be used in the same Models that are also powered by ICE. They are all built on the same production line which is vastly more flexible than what VW have done with BMW being able to respond to changes in demand much more readily. The result is a healthy profit while VW are shutting factories. To be fair BMW did build a bespoke EV in the form of the i3 and they did an excellent job of it but did they make any money out of it and did they then learn from that experience ?

https://archive.ph/WaGGr

 

[poormansporsche]

@pioneercollector

At my work we are only allowed to fill up with diesel to 75% as they want us to carry more weight !! Also we have no petty cash / disbursement system, so if you run out of fuel, it's tough £hit, wait for a flatbed, and get paid at our overtime pay rate

 

[BTB 500]

Yes I factored in my car being worth 200 quid scrap as the chances of it surviving another 2 years with it's oil drink problem is zero.

I will do some figures on the 1.2 Swift that I did have on order before I cancelled and ordered the Leaf.



I've always run bangers, it was happy days when you could buy a nice W202 for 750 quid and if it died you just bought another.

Obviously the ULEZ and COVID has screwed that up though.

Fuel is a lot cheaper at the moment (unleaded is still 129.9p round here at the moment), which affects the EV/ICE comparison. No way of knowing how long it will last of course (or what will happen to electricity prices), so a fair bit of guesswork/assumption is involved regardless.

 

[BTB 500]

Interesting view on the way for a manufacturer to go about developing and successfully selling EV's in a changeable market. While VW have come unstuck with their bespoke approach to building an EV, BMW have largely treated the electric motor as just another power train to be used in the same Models that are also powered by ICE. They are all built on the same production line which is vastly more flexible than what VW have done with BMW being able to respond to changes in demand much more readily. The result is a healthy profit while VW are shutting factories.

BMW aren't doing that well:

Sept 10 (Reuters) - BMW cut its 2024 profit margin outlook on Tuesday due to sluggish demand in its key Chinese market and problems related to a braking system supplied by Continental, sending the carmaker's shares to a near two-year low.
Shares in BMW tumbled nearly 12%, on track for their biggest intra-day loss in four and half years, while Continental shares were also down more than 10%, making them the top decliners on Germany's benchmark DAX index and also dragging down European auto stocks.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/bmw-trims-2024-profit-margin-deliveries-forecast-2024-09-10/