The EV fact thread

[Skd884]

We're not that far apart, really....

I just wish we could have a few more lightweight (one tonne?) Euro 6 motors (Focus, Golf, Dreier, E Class) around the place until someone, anyone can actually come up with an EV actually worth driving. But where's the politics in telling people they can buy Euro6 tax free as long as they literally scrap their 15 year old Euro 4's ?

View attachment 161734

I3 slim 1270kg

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I3 slim 1270kg

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Exactly.

Discontinued, after a decade of below expectation sales. Great product but just couldn’t get the public to buy it in the volumes that they’d hoped for.

 

[BTB 500]

Some more info. on Reuters today about the current state of car manufacturing in Germany (and the rest of Europe)

VW labour clash spotlights Europe's car factory conundrum

BERLIN (Reuters) - Volkswagen's showdown with powerful labour leaders over how to tackle spiralling costs at underused German factories has triggered intense soul-searching about the root causes of the carmaker's problems.

Complex governance structures, misjudged investments in EVs, poor management decisions, sliding revenues from China and Germany's crippling bureaucracy have all variously been blamed for the challenges facing the world's second-biggest automaker.

Yet a Reuters review of factory capacity utilisation data across Europe for six carmakers shows that Volkswagen is hardly an outlier and it may be in a better place than some of its major rivals when it comes to underused plants.

Renault and Stellantis, for example, both have lower average capacity utilisation rates in Europe than VW, according to the figures compiled for Reuters by GlobalData, which included numbers for BMW, Ford and Mercedes-Benz as well.

Reuters also sourced data for all automakers in eight major European car-making countries: four in higher-cost states - France, Germany, Italy and the UK - and four in lower-cost countries - Czech Republic, Slovakia, Spain and Turkey.

That data showed that there was a clear tendency towards higher factory utilisation rates in central and eastern Europe, where costs are lower, suggesting the problems most of the big automakers face are mainly in their home markets.

Across Europe, the capacity utilisation of factories making light vehicles such as passenger cars was 60% in 2023, down from 70% in 2019, the data showed.

In the lower-cost countries, the average utilisation rate slipped only slightly to 79% from 83%, but in the higher cost countries, plant use dropped to just 54% from 65%.

A utilisation rate of around 70% is considered the minimum for profitability, depending on the vehicle, according to GlobalData. Around 80%-90% is seen as cost-effective, providing some flexibility for model changeovers and maintenance.

Volkswagen, Stellantis and Mercedes-Benz said they don't comment on capacity utilisation data. Renault said it uses a different benchmark that shows a higher number for its plants. BMW also said the data may underestimate its actual levels.


'POISONED CHALICE'

For Volkswagen, pressure by German unions and politicians to make its EVs at home - a move designed to future-proof jobs - has become a "poisoned chalice", said Justin Cox, director of global autos production at GlobalData, a data analytics provider based in London.

That decision means the automaker is now using its most expensive locations to make high-cost EVs, which are not selling in the numbers expected, Cox said.

"Premium costs and mobility for all are not compatible. This applies in particular to our German plants, which currently build the majority of our electric vehicles," Volkswagen CFO Arno Antlitz said in response to questions from Reuters.

Germany had the highest wages for factory workers in the automotive industry by international comparison at 59 euros ($66) per hour in 2022, according to German autos association VDA, in contrast to 21 euros in the Czech Republic and 16 euros in Hungary. In China, wages hover around just $3 an hour, according to a Reuters analysis.

At the same time, new car sales in Europe are struggling. They fell 18% in August to their lowest in three years, dragged down by a 44% drop in overall EV sales - which included a 69% slump for German EV sales.

"We are calling for Volkswagen to bring out more models that normal consumers can afford - a cheap electric car or cheap combustion engine that's sustainable," said Stephan Soldanski, a union representative in the German city of Osnabrueck, where one of VW's most underused plants is located.

That plant is running at about 30% of its capacity, Soldanski said. The three models it makes - the Porsche Boxster, Porsche Cayman and the VW T-Roc Cabriolet - are all set to end by 2026 and unions have not heard what they will make next.

Under current labour agreements, if VW workers are idled, they continue to be paid.

"We need ideas," Soldanski said. "We don't want a slow death."


POLITICAL BLOWBACK

Volkswagen's CFO has said it has one to two years to turn things around at its namesake brand in the face of Chinese competition, with a 10-billion-euro cost-cutting drive from last December no longer seen as enough to save the company.

Negotiations are due to begin with unions on Sept. 25 over what further cost cuts are possible and VW has said plant closures in Germany cannot be ruled out.

It has already scrapped a decades-old job security agreement at six plants in Germany, enabling it to lay off workers from mid-2025, unless a new agreement is struck before then.

Labour representatives hold half the votes on the carmaker's supervisory board, however, making it hard for VW to force closures. Unions want a negotiated settlement but management says the scale of the challenges means something must give.

Managing overcapacity has long been a struggle for Europe's automakers, hamstrung by labour contracts and the risk of political blowback from shutting loss-making plants.

Now, high interest rates and a weakening economy mean demand is dropping, just as more Chinese exports arrive. Volkswagen says annual European car demand should bump along at about 14 million vehicles, down from 16 million before the pandemic.

Some of the mass-market carmakers burdened with too much capacity in Europe have already taken steps to reduce costs.

French automaker Renault has cut thousands of jobs in the region as part of a 3 billion-euro cost-cutting drive set in motion in 2021.

Stellantis, formed through the merger of Fiat Chrysler and Peugeot maker PSA, will have cut almost 20,000 jobs in Europe since 2021 by the end of 2024.

Both cut production lines and reduced capacity so they are less dependent on large assembly plants, relying more on temporary workers with fewer permanent employees on payroll.

Ford, meanwhile, will axe 5,400 jobs in Europe and plans more cuts under a regional restructuring plan that includes stopping production at its Saarlouis plant in Germany, before ramping up output in Spain where costs are lower.

According to GlobalData, all three will have worse average capacity utilisation rates than VW at the end of 2024.


MOVING EAST

Auto industry experts say the east/west split in Europe is only likely to grow as Chinese entrants, including China's biggest EV maker BYD and its biggest exporter Chery, set up shop in countries such Hungary, Turkey and Poland.

"It will accelerate," said Andy Palmer, chairman of Slovak battery maker Inobat and former Aston Martin CEO. "It's pretty inevitable."

They say markets such as Germany may be left making mainly premium or luxury cars with price tags that allow manufacturers to cover the higher operational costs.

Stellantis has already shifted some EV production to lower-cost markets. It will make EVs in Poland via a joint venture with China's Leapmotor. Its Citroen e-C3, which should sell for about 23,000 euros, will be made in Slovakia.

But like VW, Stellantis has severe excess capacity issues at home. Production slumped 63% in the first half of 2024 at its Mirafiori plant in Turin, the historic home of Fiat. Reuters was unable to determine capacity utilisation rates for the plant.

Production of its main model, the electric Fiat 500, has been on and off for months due to sluggish EV demand, while its Maserati luxury brand is limited to two low-volume cars. Workers at Mirafiori have been put on furlough schemes, partially funded by the Italian government.

Nevertheless, German unions argue that Volkswagen's wounds are self-inflicted. They blame management for not coming up with affordable, appealing EV models for them to make, which they argue would spur demand.

The German carmaker's cheapest EV is the ID.3 at over 36,000 euros, while Stellantis brands have cheaper, if less powerful models such as the Fiat 500e, Citroen e-c3, and Opel Corsa.

"They have balanced out plants in countries with higher labour costs and lower labour costs for decades. Nothing has changed," said Georg Leutert, director of automotive industries at union federation IndustriALL.

"You can't blame the workforce."

 

[Bellow]

Some more info. on Reuters today about the current state of car manufacturing in Germany (and the rest of Europe)

Sandy Munroe - the guy who tore Teslas apart and showed Musk how to make them mort economically - predicted a few years back that the Chinese would move into the premium/luxury EV sector and consumer objection would be countered when it became apparent that the quality would match that of European's by dint of Chinese models being built from the same tech that the Europeans use. Which makes the current situation with European manufacturers foreplay before the main event. Screwed without a happy ending.

 

[markjay]

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[MikeInWimbledon]

Sandy Munroe - the guy who tore Teslas apart and showed Musk how to make them mort economically - predicted a few years back that the Chinese would move into the premium/luxury EV sector and consumer objection would be countered when it became apparent that the quality would match that of European's by dint of Chinese models being built from the same tech that the Europeans use. Which makes the current situation with European manufacturers foreplay before the main event. Screwed without a happy ending.

Talk us through: Your phone, tablet, laptop, router, TV, furniture, clothes, and shoes.

How many of these things of yours were made in the UK and EU?

Are you hoping to buy a British TV or laptop any time soon? Would that give you a "happy ending?"

Let's look at the youngsters in your family. How many of them are working in manufacturing - just as a rough percentage? Two thirds? Half ? Less ?

.

 

[BTB 500]

Are you hoping to buy a British TV or laptop any time soon?

I did actually buy a British TV this year!

UK Made TVs | Buy UK Made TVs | British LED TV manufacturer

Your journey, our mission: Learn more about Cello Electronics and our commitment to quality.

celloelectronics.com

(I'm sure they buy in components from China though )

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I did actually buy a British TV this year!

UK Made TVs | Buy UK Made TVs | British LED TV manufacturer

Your journey, our mission: Learn more about Cello Electronics and our commitment to quality.

celloelectronics.com

(I'm sure they buy in components from China though )

Well done, Sir. Is it any good ?

I used to turn the handle to deliver American, Irish and Scottish "manufactured" computers into the UK, back in the 1980's

All guff, of course, to avoid trade barriers and taxes.

Components were shipped in from the Far East and "manufactured" into cabinets, and thence put into nice boxes.

But hopefully you get my point, if no-one wants to work in manufacturing, on manufacturing salaries, what chance have we got to be competitive.

(I do know just two very bright characters in their mid-twenties who are in JLR, but both of them are product developers (electronics and UI) rather than production line / distribution people.)

 

[BTB 500]

Well done, Sir. Is it any good ?

So far so good! It's a 22" 12V TV for our caravan, bought to replace a premium brand one (made in China) that cost twice as much and died after 3 years.

I used to turn the handle to deliver American, Irish and Scottish "manufactured" computers into the UK, back in the 1980's

All guff, of course, to avoid trade barriers and taxes.

Components were shipped in from the Far East and "manufactured" into cabinets, and thence put into nice boxes.

I worked on ICL mainframes in the late '70s & early '80s ... AFAIK those were actually built in the UK though.

 

[Bellow]

Talk us through: Your phone, tablet, laptop, router, TV, furniture, clothes, and shoes.

How many of these things of yours were made in the UK and EU?

Are you hoping to buy a British TV or laptop any time soon? Would that give you a "happy ending?"

Let's look at the youngsters in your family. How many of them are working in manufacturing - just as a rough percentage? Two thirds? Half ? Less ?

.

Three points.
Scale - your list is of items available for three figure sums - or close. EVs, five figure sum. That is big money for Europe to lose out on.

Your list is a snapshot of Chinese manufacturing. There is no real industry outside of China to be lost. In the automotive sector there is currently European manufacturing capacity in jeopardy.

Your list - nothing there that gets a person to and from their work place. The car is what does that and for many there is no substitute.

Just to add, the American auto manufacturers are similarly at risk. Call it all western auto production being under threat. I guess though the Chinese can sell cheaply enough such that markets depressed with large scale unemployment can still be profitable for them.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Three points.
Scale - your list is of items available for three figure sums - or close. EVs, five figure sum. That is big money for Europe to lose out on.

Your list is a snapshot of Chinese manufacturing. There is no real industry outside of China to be lost. In the automotive sector there is currently European manufacturing capacity in jeopardy.

Your list - nothing there that gets a person to and from their work place. The car is what does that and for many there is no substitute.

Just to add, the American auto manufacturers are similarly at risk. Call it all western auto production being under threat. I guess though the Chinese can sell cheaply enough such that markets depressed with large scale unemployment can still be profitable for them.

So. you've been deliberately buying most of your manufactured goods from China for some time,

but you're now complaining that your future cars will come from China instead of Alabama, South Africa, and East Europe, because China is cheaper.

Well, why don't you buy cars made in the UK ? An Ipace, a Leaf, a MINI, or whatever?



How many of your young relatives are working in car manufacturing and see a future for themselves in manufacturing?

Because it's our younger generation, our tax system and our planning system that have moved manufacturing to the half of the world that's Asia.

 

[markjay]

Much IT kit was manufactured in Ireland by all major IT hardware vendors. That went away around 20 years ago. But manufacturing in UK mainland? Not since Pye stopped making radios somewhere in the sixties. Not in any meaningful way, anyway.

 

[BTB 500]

Much IT kit was manufactured in Ireland by all major IT hardware vendors. That went away around 20 years ago. But manufacturing in UK mainland? Not since Pye stopped making radios somewhere in the sixties. Not in any meaningful way, anyway.

ICL was only formed in 1968 (merger between ICT, EEC and Eliott). Per Wikipedia:

ICL was concentrated in the United Kingdom, with its corporate headquarters in Putney in the London borough of Wandsworth.

At the time of the original merger, the company inherited extensive engineering and manufacturing facilities in West Gorton, Manchester; Castlereagh in Belfast, Stevenage and Croydon from ICT, and from English Electric in Kidsgrove, Staffordshire and Winsford, Cheshire. Manufacture and assembly also took place at several factories in Letchworth Garden City (the original home of the British Tabulating Company) and Croydon.

The company had a large research, operating system and software development and support centre in Bracknell, another smaller one at Dalkeith in Scotland and a software development centre in Adelaide, South Australia, between 1970 and 1973, application development in Reading, and training centres at Moor Hall (Cookham), Beaumont College (Old Windsor) (sales, support and software) and Letchworth (Hertfordshire) (manufacturing & field engineering).

The company also had manufacturing facilities in Park Road Mill, Dukinfield; later replaced by a purpose-built factory at Ashton-under-Lyne. Ashton under-Lyne's team was noted for working on numerous mechanical innovations in the field of computer engineering. A state of the art printed circuit board plant was built in Plymouth Grove, Manchester in 1979, however financial troubles within the company forced its closure in 1981. Other offices included a facility at Bridgford House in Nottingham

...

Outside the UK, ICL's offices around the world were mainly sales and marketing operations, with some application development for the local market. The exceptions were development and manufacturing sites arising from acquisitions, such as Utica, New York in the United States from the Singer merger, and a variety of former Nokia Data sites in Sweden and Finland.

I think there were other manufacturers in the UK ... I also used Redifon (Rediffusion) systems in the '70s and '80s which I'm pretty sure were UK built.

Redifon (later Rediffusion) Computers was also part of the group and was based in Crawley, West Sussex. It initially started in the production of analogue computers to control flight simulators, then moved to produce minicomputers ("R range"), departmental Unix Servers and microcomputers ("teleputers"), specialising in data capture, enterprise accounting for local government and videotex systems. Michael Aldrich joined the company as marketing director in 1977, and became managing director and CEO in 1980.

From 1980, the company designed, manufactured, sold, installed and maintained online shopping systems mainly in the UK and achieved a significant number of world firsts. The company's name was changed to Rediffusion Computers in 1981. During the 1980s, a large part of the company's revenue came from its sales in Eastern Europe and Russia. Equipment that met the CoCom directive for the sales of high performance technology to the Soviet Block was supplied to a number of customers the largest of which was Gazprom who used the systems on the Siberian Gas Pipeline project.[13] In addition there was a steady stream of Polish engineers attending the Crawley training facility to enable them to support and maintain this equipment mainly in Russia but also in other countries in the Eastern Bloc.

The company was highly innovative and amongst other things developed a signature recognition system for detecting cheque fraud. It was one of the first companies to sell a turnkey solution that utilised the newly available Post Office database (PAF) for postcode recognition.

 

[Bellow]

So. you've been deliberately buying most of your manufactured goods from China for some time,

There's an inevitability in that. Not deliberately, but if China is the only place those goods are made, my choice is Chinese or do without.

but you're now complaining that your future cars will come from China instead of Alabama, South Africa, and East Europe, because China is cheaper.

Nope. What I'm highlighting is how vulnerable western auto (from cars to HGV) manufacturing is and the social repercussion of high unemployment should it come to pass. Western countries are far too febrile to survive that without severe social unrest.

Well, why don't you buy cars made in the UK ? An Ipace, a Leaf, a MINI, or whatever?

Because, like many - most - in this country I can't afford to buy cars new.

How many of your young relatives are working in car manufacturing and see a future for themselves in manufacturing?

None. But the UK is hardly the beating heart of global auto manufacturing.

Because it's our younger generation, our tax system and our planning system that have moved manufacturing to the half of the world that's Asia.

No, no, no! It was not the younger generation who exported western manufacturing. That was done before they could reach a level of responsibility that would have placed that in their purview. Pensioners with assets of £1m and more bleating about being 'robbed' of £200 WFA are more likely culprits. Lets face it, western manufacturing didn't sprout legs, walk to the nearest shipping port and board ships heading for China all on its own. It was facilitated by those who were doubtless handsomely paid for their efforts. Anyone here want to step forward and admit their part in it?

 

[markjay]

Do we all have allotments and grow our own vegetables? No, we do not. We leave food production to farmers living in the countryside. Sounds like a very reasonable arrangement.

Do the English have a Whisky making industry? No, we leave it to the Scots. They are much better at it...

Do we in the UK make our our wine? Very little. Mostly we leave it to the winemakers living in warmer countries. It tastes better...

Do we make electronics in the UK? No? Bad Bad Globalisation! We should be making everything ourselves!

Can someone explain this contradiction to me please?

 

[markjay]

Some interesting figures:

The HUGE differences in electric car efficiency revealed

We reveal which EVs are the most efficient and which you shouldn't buy because they could end up costing you hundreds of pounds in charging costs.

mol.im

The EVs performed on the day between (roughly) 8% to 20% below their published WLTP ranges.

The two least efficient EVs in the test were the Audi Q6 e-tron and the Kia EV9, my guess is that they are also the heaviest cars.

Also this:

"Is battery degradation a real concern?

To help answer this What Car? also tested a nine-year-old Tesla Model S with 258,000 miles on the clock.

The test was set out to to see if concerns around battery longevity are justified. And the answer was overwhelmingly no.

Despite the Model S still being on its original battery and having covered a staggering almost 260,000 miles (effectively travelling to the moon), the test showed the Model S had lost just 8 per cent of its original capacity."

However, it's worth noting that different EV manufacturers may use different types of batteries, so there's no guarantee that all EV batteries are as deterioration-proof as Tesla's.

 

[ChrisPDuck]

There was report in the Telegraph recently of a Model S with similar mileage - Alex Robbins took it to the south of France and back. It was an ex-Tesla works car, used for travelling the country to attend to the Supercharger network. It was showing 84% SOC - a little worse than the 8% loss of the example above, but maybe the displayed SOC and the real-world test don't show quite the same thing. I could quite believe What Car? and the Telegraph were testing the same car - the one in the Telegraph had covered 255,000 miles at the time.

Anyway, it's all making a 2015 Tesla Model S look like a decent used buy, given that they get free charging on Tesla's network.

 

[BTB 500]

"Is battery degradation a real concern?

To help answer this What Car? also tested a nine-year-old Tesla Model S with 258,000 miles on the clock.

There have certainly been a few stories about older Model S cars that are still performing well on the original battery. But it's a bit of a stretch to assume that applies to all Teslas.

However, it's worth noting that different EV manufacturers may use different types of batteries, so there's no guarantee that all EV batteries are as deterioration-proof as Tesla's.

It's also worth noting that there's a whole industry out there specialising in Tesla battery repairs. Maybe newer packs aren't as good, or the cars don't manage them as well, or some other factor(s) are involved.


Just from a quick Google:

Model S - Main Battery Pack Repair | Gruber Motors

Tesla Roadster PEM Upgrade

grubermotors.com

Tesla Battery Repair & Exchange Programme | Cedar Electric

Take a look at our Tesla Battery Repair & Exchange Programme that our Electric Vehicle specialists have designed and perfected

cedarelectric.co.uk

Tesla EV Battery Repair & Replacement

Getting a Tesla EV battery repaired or replaced can be very costly; let us show you how affordable we can make it! Get a free consultation with us BEFORE you replace your Tesla battery elsewhere!

precisionevr.com

Tesla Battery Replacement | Expert Service & Warranty

Ensure your Tesla performs at its peak with our expert battery replacement service. Book today for a seamless experience, genuine parts, and a comprehensive warranty.

www.evhybridtech.co.uk

Tesla Battery Repair: Expert Solutions for All Tesla Models

Get professional Tesla battery repair and replacement services for all models. Restore the performance and power of your Tesla with our expert technicians.

www.evsrepublic.com

Electric EV Battery Repair, Tesla Battery Reconditioning and Repair

Experience top-tier Tesla EV battery reconditioning and repair services in Warsaw, Poland. Our skilled technicians specialize in restoring and maintaining Tesla batteries

nikola-service.com

Battery repair

Institute for EV, PHEV and ICE research and repair

evclinic.eu

Tesla Battery Repair | HV Service | Cypress, California

We are specialized in Tesla Battery Repair. And fix any problems with your HV battery. Get a free estimate, 657-222-4020.

teslaservice.la

Battery repair | TESLA Service am Nürburgring by RPR Motors

Tesla battery repair Model S / X at RPR Motors.

tesla-service-nuerburgring.com

THE EV REVIVER | tesla error codes | EV Battery Repair I Orange County, CA, USA

At The EV Reviver our speciality is Tesla Model S between years 2012 - 2017 who are either at least 8 years old or have over 100,000 miles. We focus on these because any battery malfunctions, range issues, etc no longer fall within the standard Tesla warranty. Rather than repair the battery, we...

www.theevreviver.com

etc.

 

[BIGDOG]

It’s weird that the detractors are so invested in this thread.

 

[Dryce]

It’s weird that the detractors are so invested in this thread.

Why ? It's really a political thread - and where there are advocates then there are those who might question the advocacy. And advocates uncomfortable with any attempt to moderate, mitigate, or even contradict their views will determine that those doing the moderation, mitigation, or contradiction and detractors or even haters.