The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

I’m pretty sure that the £15k is already built in to Ferrari, Lamborghini and other supercar manufacturer prices. The price of new models is continuing to increase by much more than what can be explained by inflation and hybridisation.

Agreed, I know we've gone through Covid-19 inflation, and the whole Covid wealth boom,

but the Italians, and Porsche, have realised that they can effectively ask any Supercar price they want, and get it.

(I say that despite us having talked about stocks of Ferrari and Porsche sitting in distributor inventory this year)

€15k ? Peanuts ! Although they'll probably end up paying half that by buying CO2 credits from EV manufacturers.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Agreed, I know we've gone through Covid-19 inflation, and the whole Covid wealth boom,

but the Italians, and Porsche, have realised that they can effectively ask any Supercar price they want, and get it.

(I say that despite us having talked about stocks of Ferrari and Porsche sitting in distributor inventory this year)

€15k ? Peanuts ! Although they'll probably end up paying half that by buying CO2 credits from EV manufacturers.

The supercar manufacturers are in a relatively unusual position.

Other luxury good sectors will be facing not-dissimilar challenges - such as handbags, clothing, jewellery and watches - however supercar manufacturers are possibly going to be bitten hardest. Whilst those items are expensive relative to non luxury equivalents they are less reliant upon customer borrowing, and they’re less capital intensive. .

A long steady increase in the volumes and pricing of luxury goods, followed by a relatively short-medium term bubble pushing demand to unprecedented levels, before a very rapid deflation (rather than bursting). The bubble lasted long enough for them to scale up to meet the surge in demand, but not long enough to become sustainable.

People who can still afford their brand new supercar can afford to pay even a sharp increase, and so they’re pumping up the sales price for units sold to offset the costs they’re carrying on unsold inventory . The ones who can’t afford the sharp increase couldn’t afford to buy one at the previous pricing either because of the finance cost.

The customers who can’t afford it can’t afford the finance repayments. Even people with supercar collections very often borrow against each car, but they tend to be less sensitive. They either carry on buying regardless (cash) or just order two new supercars this year rather than the usual three or four that they might have done in recent years.

A relatively large proportion of the growing number of supercar buyers in the last decade have done so because inflation and interest rates were low, lending criteria were generous and many supercars depreciated slowly or might have even appreciated in the short-medium term resulting in very strong residuals. That made supercars expensive to buy but inexpensive to finance.

Those people who piled in are the ones who might not be able to afford the finance on their next supercar.now so order books have gone from waiting lists and the need to pre-qualify for some models to oversupply. I wouldn’t be surprised if the margin on the sold cars is now such that it will offset the cost of the unsold inventory for a while.

Interesting times.

 

[Bellow]

TBH, we really ought to be banning Supercars if we want to reduce stupid CO2 creation in manufacturing and usage.

The Supercar is outdated.

I agree but with a different primary goal in mind. The engineering staff and resources could - and should - be put to better use developing what's needed. Tasking them with, say, synthetic fuel development might actually deliver benefits for all of us up to and including avoiding the otherwise inevitable slaughtering of the European car industry.

 

[Bellow]

I wonder how take up would have been if the media had been neutral or positive about the switch to EVs rather than fanning the flames.

The reality is most people would go with the majority and/or flow of direction on most things - including vehicle powertrain, but the volume of negative articles and comments has interrupted that natural flow.

Unfortunately the negatively brings reactions, reactions driver interactivity, and interactivity is a big driver of revenue in media.

Beyond some of the more sensational stuff, I'm not convinced that the media has played a significant role. Hard I think for anyone to argue that it has when the usual allegation is that it is overtly pro climate change and the required mitigations.
Nope, I think we can look at facts as to why the current situation. One of which is that for a significant amount of people their dwelling just does not allow for domestic charging. For those of them - which could be a significant number - who would have to rely on public chargers the variability (current and future) in pricing cannot be other than an obstacle. These people don't have to devour media to know their own position. And that, is but one issue - there are others affecting differently others.

 

[Fastcar155]

Government are trying to bully the general population into purchasing electric cars against their will.
The average price for a new battery car is £51,000 against £18,000 for a new Dacia.Forget all the positive and negative issues in a battery car but they are overpriced to start with , don't hold there value and today many dealers won't do part exchange on battery cars.A petrol hybrid car is a better prospect but supply again could be an issue.€15000 finest in not selling a quota of cars is suicide for the industry and if our governments continue down this road we won't have a car industry.We as a country will be forced to import foreign Chinese cars because the EU manufacturers won't be able to supply.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I agree but with a different primary goal in mind. The engineering staff and resources could - and should - be put to better use developing what's needed. Tasking them with, say, synthetic fuel development might actually deliver benefits for all of us up to and including avoiding the otherwise inevitable slaughtering of the European car industry.

How do suspension experts, bodywork engineers, leather specialists, carbon fibre engineers, robotics test engineers, automation SE's, marketing managers, or showroom managers help with the chemistry of developing synthetic fuel?

"Asking for some amici...."

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The average price for a new battery car is £51,000 against £18,000 for a new Dacia.

Dacia is a budget brand, so comparing a Dacia ICE model with the market average of BEVs isn’t really a helpful comparison.

Comparing that £18,000 Dacia ICE with a Dacia BEV would be more helpful comparison. The Dacia Spring BEV is £14,995.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Government are trying to bully the general population into purchasing electric cars against their will.
The average price for a new battery car is £51,000 against £18,000 for a new Dacia.Forget all the positive and negative issues in a battery car but they are overpriced to start with , don't hold there value and today many dealers won't do part exchange on battery cars.A petrol hybrid car is a better prospect but supply again could be an issue.€15000 finest in not selling a quota of cars is suicide for the industry and if our governments continue down this road we won't have a car industry.We as a country will be forced to import foreign Chinese cars because the EU manufacturers won't be able to supply.

Scientists have bullied governments into reducing CO2 emissions. The transition to EV is but a small part.

With three billion people in Asia and Africa about to buy a car for the first time, it becomes quite urgent. as the planet's going from 1.5 billion cars to 4.5 billion.

A billion here, a billion there. you soon end up with a lot of CO2

The cheapest EV's in the UK used to be £26k, which included a lot of tax which flowed straight to the Government. The Dacia Spring EV has just gone on sale at £15,000, and there's a long queue of £20k Asian made EV's coming to onto the UK market within the next two years.

EV's which can be fuelled at 3p / mile from your home or office electrical socket. For a lot of working and middle class people, that's at least £10,000 saved over the typical 10 year life of a car.

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[ioweddie]

Scientists have bullied governments into reducing CO2 emissions. The transition to EV is but a small part.

With three billion people in Asia and Africa about to buy a car for the first time, it becomes quite urgent. as the planet's going from 1.5 billion cars to 4.5 billion.

A billion here, a billion there. you soon end up with a lot of CO2

The cheapest EV's in the UK used to be £26k, which included a lot of tax which flowed straight to the Government. The Dacia Spring EV has just gone on sale at £15,000, and there's a long queue of Asian made EV's coming to onto the UK market within the next two years.

EV's which can be fuelled at 3p / mile from your home or office electrical socket. For a lot of working and middle class people, that's at least £10,000 saved over the typical 10 year life of a car.

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Crap motors the lot of them

 

[SmartAmg]

Crap motors the lot of them

What Dacia's or ICE cars.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Crap motors the lot of them

For sure, but the working class have always gone for crap stuff.

While the Sindlefingen has come up with this...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Crap motors the lot of them

Which is why Mayor Khan and Sir Keir Starmer are keen to tax our working class off the roads, or at least back onto bikes and buses, as soon as possible.

 

[190]

The underlying problem is that governments and unelected officials in the EU, have been meddling in the technology of cars - something they know nothing about. The UK and Europe were making big strides in emissions reduction and would have continued to do so with sensible guidance i.e set the emissions targets and let the manufacturers who know what they are doing, devise a way of reaching them or at least be part of the debate if they can't. Instead what happened is that politicians who don't know what they are doing, meddled in technology and decided they would dictate the answer only to find that car buyers didn't agree.

It's the same with heat pumps and boiler tax, the politicians never seem to learn that meddling and trying to force the issue on the basis of ideology doesn't work. As far as the UK is concerned I blame in chronological order; Theresa May, Boris's Mrs and the current idiot who is looking like he will be the worst of the lot. And all for what ? only 0.5 % of world emissions. Our contribution to world emissions would have fallen anyway if we had just kept sensibly on track. I wonder if they'll be happy if our share of world emissions falls because the lunatics wrecked the economy.

 

[Fastcar155]

Dacia is a budget brand, so comparing a Dacia ICE model with the market average of BEVs isn’t really a helpful comparison.

Comparing that £18,000 Dacia ICE with a Dacia BEV would be more helpful comparison. The Dacia Spring BEV is £14,995.

Even better value then , I suppose.

 

[Bellow]

How do suspension experts, bodywork engineers, leather specialists, carbon fibre engineers, robotics test engineers, automation SE's, marketing managers, or showroom managers help with the chemistry of developing synthetic fuel?

"Asking for some amici...."

None were born with those skills. They learned them and can learn to work in new disciplines. It's what engineers do.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The underlying problem is that governments and unelected officials in the EU, have been meddling in the technology of cars - something they know nothing about. The UK and Europe were making big strides in emissions reduction and would have continued to do so with sensible guidance i.e set the emissions targets and let the manufacturers who know what they are doing, devise a way of reaching them or at least be part of the debate if they can't. Instead what happened is that politicians who don't know what they are doing, meddled in technology and decided they would dictate the answer only to find that car buyers didn't agree.

It's the same with heat pumps and boiler tax, the politicians never seem to learn that meddling and trying to force the issue on the basis of ideology doesn't work. As far as the UK is concerned I blame in chronological order; Theresa May, Boris's Mrs and the current idiot who is looking like he will be the worst of the lot. And all for what ? only 0.5 % of world emissions. Our contribution to world emissions would have fallen anyway if we had just kept sensibly on track. I wonder if they'll be happy if our share of world emissions falls because the lunatics wrecked the economy.

John Prescott signed the Kyoto commitment 27 years ago in 1997. Why complain now? (OK, he didn't know what he was doing, but we elected Mr Prescott by a landslide)

The EU passed the legislation setting out the EV timeline for Europe back in 2023. That sets the rules for the European industry, and there was no way that the UK could have taken a different path. "Rolls Royce / Bentley / Nissan / MINI / Toyota....it's OK you can sell ICE in the UK ! Response: "No we can't, the EU will fine us." And ditto, obviously, Mercedes, BMW, VAG, Stellantis etc.

The Scientists sent us down this path.

The Civil Servants wrote the legislation.

And the world's politicians passed it into law.

All to save a few polar bears, and Norfolk. As if anyone cares?

 

[Skd884]

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-shelves-norway-hydrogen-project-due-lack-demand-2024-09-23/

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

None were born with those skills. They learned them and can learn to work in new disciplines. It's what engineers do.

Pardon? You expect an automotive suspension engineer to retrain as a fuel industry chemist ?

A century of the planet failing to create synthetic fuels to avoid dependency on the Arabs and the Yanks, and you think the solution is to get a Lamborghini marketing manager to study Chemistry?

You tease us, Bellow, you old tease.

 

[Bellow]

Pardon? You expect an automotive suspension engineer to retrain as a fuel industry chemist ?

Not necessarily. But the chemists will need apparatus.

A century of the planet failing to create synthetic fuels to avoid dependency on the Arabs and the Yanks, and you think the solution is to get a Lamborghini marketing manager to study Chemistry?

Thing is these guys are smart enough to know that the days of the supercar are nearly over (they read it on the internet) and if they want to continue earning....
I get your point though. I guess the 'leather' guys will have to learn to make handbags.

You tease us, Bellow, you old tease.

'Tis you teasing those who believe hydrogen is the future (it isn't) with talk of releasing carbon fibre engineers. Wet dreams of CF hydrogen storage tanks ensues.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Not necessarily. But the chemists will need apparatus.

Thing is these guys are smart enough to know that the days of the supercar are nearly over (they read it on the internet) and if they want to continue earning....
I get your point though. I guess the 'leather' guys will have to learn to make handbags.

'Tis you teasing those who believe hydrogen is the future (it isn't) with talk of releasing carbon fibre engineers. Wet dreams of CF hydrogen storage tanks ensues.

We're not that far apart, really....

I just wish we could have a few more lightweight (one tonne?) Euro 6 motors (Focus, Golf, Dreier, E Class) around the place until someone, anyone can actually come up with an EV actually worth driving. But where's the politics in telling people they can buy Euro6 tax free as long as they literally scrap their 15 year old Euro 4's ?