The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

Charger prices are opaque at the moment. "Get your electricity here. And when you do, we'll tell you the price."

I was wondering about that the other day. Do public charge points generally charge about the same (for a particular charging rate), or does it vary from one supplier to another?

AFAIK it's a legal requirement for petrol/diesel forecourts to clearly display their prices (and 'publish' them electronically so they can be shown on satnavs etc.) - why would the same not apply to EV charging points??

As I understand it neither public charging rates nor the cheap home EV tariffs are protected by the Ofgem price cap?

 

[BTB 500]

IIRC they are partly owned by VW and BMW??

Battery maker Northvolt to cut 1,600 jobs in restructuring
Move comes amid reports of urgent financial problems at company as electric car market slows

The Swedish battery maker Northvolt is to cut 1,600 jobs in restructuring, in response to “headwinds” blowing through the electric car industry.

The battery company announced redundancies across three of its sites on Monday, including 1,000 in Skellefteå, in northern Sweden, where it is suspending the expansion of Northvolt Ett, Europe’s first homegrown battery gigafactory.

The company, which has been seen as Europe’s most promising contender to China’s battery producers, will also cut 400 jobs in Västerås, in central Sweden, where Northvolt Labs is based, and 200 in Stockholm, home to its head office.

Batterymaker Northvolt to cut 1,600 jobs amid electric car ‘headwinds’

Move comes after weeks of uncertainty over reports of financial problems as green vehicle sector struggles

www.theguardian.com

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I was wondering about that the other day. Do public charge points generally charge about the same (for a particular charging rate), or does it vary from one supplier to another?

Absolutely not, like petrol and diesel, it depends on who and where.

High speed chargers are more expensive that slow or ordinary chargers, and motorway chargers are more expensive that off-motorway.
(The same old Starbucks / WH Smith tradition of "these suckers don't look at the prices)

Obviously most charging is done at home or at the office, for "not much" or "nowt," but some users are wholly dependent on commercial chargers.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

IIRC they are partly owned by VW and BMW??

Batterymaker Northvolt to cut 1,600 jobs amid electric car ‘headwinds’

Move comes after weeks of uncertainty over reports of financial problems as green vehicle sector struggles

www.theguardian.com

VW owns about 20%, and the BMW piece is much smaller, but BMW is in bed with Northvolt because it was a big potential customer until it cancelled its order earlier this year.

Not much different to other key European industrials, cross ownership is fairly common

The layoffs are about 25% of the Northolt staff

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As I understand it neither public charging rates nor the cheap home EV tariffs are protected by the Ofgem price cap?

AFAIK there's no specific protection for the home EV tariff, just the overall price cap for your domestic consumption.

Which I "think" is still about to go back up again in October.

 

[BTB 500]

AFAIK there's no specific protection for the home EV tariff, just the overall price cap for your domestic consumption.

Which I "think" is still about to go back up again in October.

Yup my understanding was that the cap only applies to the standard domestic tariffs, which are indeed increasing from October 1st.

 

[Retaxus]

AFAIK there's no specific protection for the home EV tariff, just the overall price cap for your domestic consumption.

Which I "think" is still about to go back up again in October.

I am in East Yorkshire and we have a Renault Zoe 52Kwh. We can charge overnight at 7p per Kw so that is about £4 to full. All the local public chargers are 79p thats 11 times the price, £44 per fill. If you have to use a public charger its more expensive than petrol. We topped up at Hopwood Park on the M42 , that was also 79p , same as local Morrisons.

 

[BTB 500]

I am in East Yorkshire and we have a Renault Zoe 52Kwh. We can charge overnight at 7p per Kw so that is about £4 to full.

It's a bit more than that as you lose some power in the charging process. How much varies from one car to the next but 20-25% loss isn't unusual. DC fast charging is more efficient as (a) the car doesn't have to internally convert mains AC to DC and (b) less power is consumed by the on-board monitoring etc. systems (the charge is quicker, so they're simply running for less time).

Edit - ADAC (the German equivalent of the AA) tested the Zoe 52 kWh and measured that 64.3 kWh (£4.50 at 7p per kWh) was used from the mains for a full charge, so a charging loss of 23.7%.

Renault Zoe: Test mit 52 kWh-Akku

Der Renault Zoe soll mit 52-kWh-Batterie 390 km weit kommen. Ist das realistisch? Der Elektro-Kleinwagen im ADAC Test.

www.adac.de

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I am in East Yorkshire and we have a Renault Zoe 52Kwh. We can charge overnight at 7p per Kw so that is about £4 to full. All the local public chargers are 79p thats 11 times the price, £44 per fill. If you have to use a public charger its more expensive than petrol. We topped up at Hopwood Park on the M42 , that was also 79p , same as local Morrisons.

Yes, most EV nerds reckon to pay around 7p per kWh at home on their Octopus Intelligent go connections.

So, not quite 2p / mile as BTB500 points out but more like a horrific 3p / mile.

All subject to the overall cap on home electricity usage.

As has been said more than a few times, when people switch to “Intelligent Go” on getting an EV, they usually don’t even notice their electricity bill changing. But do notice their petrol bill disappearing,

The problem: finding an EV that you want to actually put on your driveway, or park outside the pub

 

[Retaxus]

Yes, most EV nerds reckon to pay around 7p per kWh at home on their Octopus Intelligent go connections.

So, not quite 2p / mile as BTB500 points out but more like a horrific 3p / mile.

All subject to the overall cap on home electricity usage.

As has been said more than a few times, when people switch to “Intelligent Go” on getting an EV, they usually don’t even notice their electricity bill changing. But do notice their petrol bill disappearing,

The problem: finding an EV that you want to actually put on your driveway, or park outside the pub

Actually , I lied about the 7p , that would be if I charged at my sons house. My electricity cost is negative. I have solar and am on Intelligent Octopus Flux where each Kw costs 19p and each Kw exported is 19P, I export much more than I import.
Over the last 24 months I have generated 12230 units and consumed 6437 units , they have paid me for the difference. I'm using the grid as huge battery.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Actually , I lied about the 7p , that would be if I charged at my sons house. My electricity cost is negative. I have solar and am on Intelligent Octopus Flux where each Kw costs 19p and each Kw exported is 19P, I export much more than I import.
Over the last 24 months I have generated 12230 units and consumed 6437 units , they have paid me for the difference. I'm using the grid as huge battery.

So you're the rich Geezer who charges us so much for the juice we take.

 

[BTB 500]

Actually , I lied about the 7p , that would be if I charged at my sons house. My electricity cost is negative. I have solar and am on Intelligent Octopus Flux where each Kw costs 19p and each Kw exported is 19P, I export much more than I import.
Over the last 24 months I have generated 12230 units and consumed 6437 units , they have paid me for the difference. I'm using the grid as huge battery.

With 14 panels on the garage roof our whole energy cost is negative In round figures the annual electricity and gas bills (based on the new rates from October 1st) are £500 and £1000 respectively, and we earn £2000 from the solar panels. So we're around £500 a year in profit.

We only get paid 5.07p per kWh exported, but we also get paid 71.85p per kWh generated (regardless of whether we use it ourselves or export it ... this is an old feed-in tariff that runs until 2036).

Over a year we typically generate 3000 kWh, export 2100, and import 1100 (so total annual usage is 2000 kWh). The snag with solar power and EVs would be that you generate the least in autumn/winter, when your car's efficiency is at its worst.

 

[BTB 500]

In the news today ... not a great surprise

"Italy to present proposal for early review of EU combustion engine ban
​

ROME (Reuters) - Italy will file an official proposal this week to bring forward to next year a planned European Union review of the bloc's ban on the sale of new internal combustion engine cars from 2035, Industry Minister Adolfo Urso said on Monday.​

Italy's proposal will be discussed by its national delegation of EU lawmakers on Wednesday, before being officially presented the following day at a meeting of EU industry ministers, Urso said.​

​

Italy is among a group of EU countries pushing back against the bloc's so-called Green Deal, led by the European Commission, to tackle climate change and curb pollution, with Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni often dismissing its proposals as "ideological".​

​

"We believe it's absolutely necessary to modify the direction of EU industrial policy," Urso told a gathering of business associations and trade unions.​

​

"The automotive sector is the one where a change from the Green Deal is most required," he added.​

​

In March 2023, EU countries approved a landmark law that will require all new cars to have zero CO2 emissions from 2035, effectively banning diesel and petrol vehicles and leaving the market almost solely to electric ones.
​

The EU Commission, however, scheduled a review of the legislation for 2026 to assess technological advances of hybrid cars and whether they can comply with the 2035 goal. The EU law also includes an exemption for cars running on e-fuels.​

​

Last week Meloni called the planned phase-out of internal combustion cars a "self-destructive" decision, saying it was causing too much damage to Europe's auto industry.​

​

The EU measures were meant to speed up the electrification of the sector, but several automakers have recently started to scale down their electric vehicle roll-out plans due to poor demand."​

MSN

 

[Bellow]

In the news today ... not a great surprise

"Italy to present proposal for early review of EU combustion engine ban​

​

ROME (Reuters) - Italy will file an official proposal this week to bring forward to next year a planned European Union review of the bloc's ban on the sale of new internal combustion engine cars from 2035, Industry Minister Adolfo Urso said on Monday.​

Italy's proposal will be discussed by its national delegation of EU lawmakers on Wednesday, before being officially presented the following day at a meeting of EU industry ministers, Urso said.​

​

Italy is among a group of EU countries pushing back against the bloc's so-called Green Deal, led by the European Commission, to tackle climate change and curb pollution, with Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni often dismissing its proposals as "ideological".​

​

"We believe it's absolutely necessary to modify the direction of EU industrial policy," Urso told a gathering of business associations and trade unions.​

​

"The automotive sector is the one where a change from the Green Deal is most required," he added.​

​

In March 2023, EU countries approved a landmark law that will require all new cars to have zero CO2 emissions from 2035, effectively banning diesel and petrol vehicles and leaving the market almost solely to electric ones.​

​

The EU Commission, however, scheduled a review of the legislation for 2026 to assess technological advances of hybrid cars and whether they can comply with the 2035 goal. The EU law also includes an exemption for cars running on e-fuels.​

​

Last week Meloni called the planned phase-out of internal combustion cars a "self-destructive" decision, saying it was causing too much damage to Europe's auto industry.​

​

The EU measures were meant to speed up the electrification of the sector, but several automakers have recently started to scale down their electric vehicle roll-out plans due to poor demand."​

MSN

There's a certain inevitability to the above. Thing is, unless bio/synthetic fuels are taken seriously there is no alternative but to continue/revert to fossil fuels. You need a better basket than what's on offer to put all your eggs in.

 

[markjay]

In the news today ... not a great surprise

"Italy to present proposal for early review of EU combustion engine ban​

​

ROME (Reuters) - Italy will file an official proposal this week to bring forward to next year a planned European Union review of the bloc's ban on the sale of new internal combustion engine cars from 2035, Industry Minister Adolfo Urso said on Monday.​

Italy's proposal will be discussed by its national delegation of EU lawmakers on Wednesday, before being officially presented the following day at a meeting of EU industry ministers, Urso said.​

​

Italy is among a group of EU countries pushing back against the bloc's so-called Green Deal, led by the European Commission, to tackle climate change and curb pollution, with Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni often dismissing its proposals as "ideological".​

​

"We believe it's absolutely necessary to modify the direction of EU industrial policy," Urso told a gathering of business associations and trade unions.​

​

"The automotive sector is the one where a change from the Green Deal is most required," he added.​

​

In March 2023, EU countries approved a landmark law that will require all new cars to have zero CO2 emissions from 2035, effectively banning diesel and petrol vehicles and leaving the market almost solely to electric ones.​

​

The EU Commission, however, scheduled a review of the legislation for 2026 to assess technological advances of hybrid cars and whether they can comply with the 2035 goal. The EU law also includes an exemption for cars running on e-fuels.​

​

Last week Meloni called the planned phase-out of internal combustion cars a "self-destructive" decision, saying it was causing too much damage to Europe's auto industry.​

​

The EU measures were meant to speed up the electrification of the sector, but several automakers have recently started to scale down their electric vehicle roll-out plans due to poor demand."​

MSN

This is certainly good news to Italy's supercar industry.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

There's a certain inevitability to the above. Thing is, unless bio/synthetic fuels are taken seriously there is no alternative but to continue/revert to fossil fuels. You need a better basket than what's on offer to put all your eggs in.

Even bio/synthetic fuels are not sufficiently scalable at the moment, and has it’s own challenges to overcome which will take an extended period.

I cannot help but think that the UK’s (IMHO) premature decision to push back the 2030 deadline has influenced perceptions on the need to make the switch to EVs across Europe.

I personally underestimated just how much reporting there is on UK politics - and news in general - in other countries until I started working closely with people from across Europe.

When Brexit happened the majority of those friends and colleagues were concerned that it would trigger the average person in their country to demand an exit vote.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

This is certainly good news to Italy's supercar industry.

Bringing forward a meeting always excites.

More for the non-Supercar sector (FIAT and Alfa) which is about to be flattened by cheap imports from Eastern Europe and Asia,

Supercars have more "wiggle room" as they can afford the €15k fine, AND they can buy CO2 credits from EV suppliers like Tesla.

TBH, we really ought to be banning Supercars if we want to reduce stupid CO2 creation in manufacturing and usage.

The Supercar is outdated.

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[Bobby Dazzler]

Bringing forward a meeting always excites.

More for the non-Supercar sector (FIAT and Alfa) which is about to be flattened by cheap imports from Eastern Europe and Asia,

Supercars have more "wiggle room" as they can afford the €15k fine, AND they can buy CO2 credits from EV suppliers like Tesla.

TBH, we really ought to be banning Supercars if we want to reduce stupid CO2 creation in manufacturing and usage.

The Supercar is outdated.

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I’m pretty sure that the £15k is already built in to Ferrari, Lamborghini and other supercar manufacturer prices. The price of new models is continuing to increase by much more than what can be explained by inflation and hybridisation.

 

[markjay]

Bringing forward a meeting always excites.

More for the non-Supercar sector (FIAT and Alfa) which is about to be flattened by cheap imports from Eastern Europe and Asia,

Supercars have more "wiggle room" as they can afford the €15k fine, AND they can buy CO2 credits from EV suppliers like Tesla.

TBH, we really ought to be banning Supercars if we want to reduce stupid CO2 creation in manufacturing and usage.

The Supercar is outdated.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

While it's true that China can't compete with European automakers on ICE cars, they don't actually want to, either - they are going all-in on EVs.

If European automakers take the anticipated relaxation of new ICE sales ban as allowing them a longer transition period, then they have a fighting chance against the Chinese.

But if they think that this is their lifeline, then they are clearly oblivious of the fact that building new ICE cars today is akin to sitting on a melting ice cube.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I wonder how take up would have been if the media had been neutral or positive about the switch to EVs rather than fanning the flames.

The reality is most people would go with the majority and/or flow of direction on most things - including vehicle powertrain, but the volume of negative articles and comments has interrupted that natural flow.

Unfortunately the negatively brings reactions, reactions driver interactivity, and interactivity is a big driver of revenue in media.