The EV fact thread

[SmartAmg]

Why ? It's really a political thread - and where there are advocates then there are those who might question the advocacy. And advocates uncomfortable with any attempt to moderate, mitigate, or even contradict their views will determine that those doing the moderation, mitigation, or contradiction and detractors or even haters.

Don't understand a bloody word of what you've just said.

 

[markjay]

There have certainly been a few stories about older Model S cars that are still performing well on the original battery. But it's a bit of a stretch to assume that applies to all Teslas.




It's also worth noting that there's a whole industry out there specialising in Tesla battery repairs. Maybe newer packs aren't as good, or the cars don't manage them as well, or some other factor(s) are involved.


Just from a quick Google:

Model S - Main Battery Pack Repair | Gruber Motors

Tesla Roadster PEM Upgrade

grubermotors.com

Tesla Battery Repair & Exchange Programme | Cedar Electric

Take a look at our Tesla Battery Repair & Exchange Programme that our Electric Vehicle specialists have designed and perfected

cedarelectric.co.uk

Tesla EV Battery Repair & Replacement

Getting a Tesla EV battery repaired or replaced can be very costly; let us show you how affordable we can make it! Get a free consultation with us BEFORE you replace your Tesla battery elsewhere!

precisionevr.com

Tesla Battery Replacement | Expert Service & Warranty

Ensure your Tesla performs at its peak with our expert battery replacement service. Book today for a seamless experience, genuine parts, and a comprehensive warranty.

www.evhybridtech.co.uk

Tesla Battery Repair: Expert Solutions for All Tesla Models

Get professional Tesla battery repair and replacement services for all models. Restore the performance and power of your Tesla with our expert technicians.

www.evsrepublic.com

Electric EV Battery Repair, Tesla Battery Reconditioning and Repair

Experience top-tier Tesla EV battery reconditioning and repair services in Warsaw, Poland. Our skilled technicians specialize in restoring and maintaining Tesla batteries

nikola-service.com

Battery repair

Institute for EV, PHEV and ICE research and repair

evclinic.eu

Tesla Battery Repair | HV Service | Cypress, California

We are specialized in Tesla Battery Repair. And fix any problems with your HV battery. Get a free estimate, 657-222-4020.

teslaservice.la

Battery repair | TESLA Service am Nürburgring by RPR Motors

Tesla battery repair Model S / X at RPR Motors.

tesla-service-nuerburgring.com

THE EV REVIVER | tesla error codes | EV Battery Repair I Orange County, CA, USA

At The EV Reviver our speciality is Tesla Model S between years 2012 - 2017 who are either at least 8 years old or have over 100,000 miles. We focus on these because any battery malfunctions, range issues, etc no longer fall within the standard Tesla warranty. Rather than repair the battery, we...

www.theevreviver.com

etc.

I think you are confusing reliability with service life span - two very different issues.

An item can have a service life span of (say) 2m hours, and an MTBF of (say) 70,000 hours. This simply makes the item unreliable, because on average it will need to be repaired (but not necessarily replaced) around 30 times during its service life span.

The test I quoted (admittedly, carried out on a sample pool of one) suggested that the Tesla's battery performance deterioration over time was minimal, but it made no comment regarding reliability.

The availability of repair services for Tesla batteries is therefore neither here not there when it comes to life span. Unless, of course, your argument is that Tesla's battery reliability is so poor that few batteries rarely get to see their full service life span?

 

[markjay]

Don't understand a bloody word of what you've just said.

Have to admit that the post had an uncharacteristically Donald Rumsfeldish aroma to it.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Much IT kit was manufactured in Ireland by all major IT hardware vendors. That went away around 20 years ago. But manufacturing in UK mainland? Not since Pye stopped making radios somewhere in the sixties. Not in any meaningful way, anyway.

50,000 people in Siicon Glen in Scotland were making 3 out of 10 personal computers sold in Europe in the 1980's. big disk drives, minicomputers, and some mainframes.

Two thirds of Europe's ATM's used to be made by the 6,000 people at NCR in Dundee.

Scottish computer companies: IBM Greenock, Sun, HP, Texas Instruments, Compaq, WANG. It was quite a boom from the mid 1970's until 2000.

All on the back of tariff walls, and Scottish Development grants. When the walls and grants went away, so did the manufacturing.

England? Well obviously, ICL, RACAL and so on. IBM: not so much, although Portsmouth had two thousand people manufacturing at North Harbour, Havant making 360's, 370's and even water-cooled mainframes.

However, much as we LOATHE manufacturing anything, there will be many more people working on "digital" in Scotland now than were ever in Computer manufacturing. Computer games (which is bigger business than the film industry), software, finance and insurance have all boomed and replaced that silly manufacturing stuff, which was often just building products based on foreign component imports.

We don't manufacture because we don't want to manufacture. We want to do the more value-added stuff.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

No, no, no! It was not the younger generation who exported western manufacturing. That was done before they could reach a level of responsibility that would have placed that in their purview. Pensioners with assets of £1m and more bleating about being 'robbed' of £200 WFA are more likely culprits. Lets face it, western manufacturing didn't sprout legs, walk to the nearest shipping port and board ships heading for China all on its own. It was facilitated by those who were doubtless handsomely paid for their efforts. Anyone here want to step forward and admit their part in it?

Nonsense.

Kids in their 20's are queuing up to get in value add jobs, they're not racing to work 6-2, 2-10, and nights.

Why work on the Ford Transit Assembly line, as some of my relatives did, when you could be recording "The Grand Tour" for a TV company, preparing a set for "Bond 28, or doing sound for a Music gig?"

You buy stuff because it's cheap, and cheap manufacturing is more easily done in the half of the world where incomes are low, taxes on employment are low, planning restrictions are low.

You choose not to buy an £1000 pair of Church shoes and give a lot less money to Asians to make your footwear instead. And why not ?

It's an excuse to say that we shouldn't have let the Ford Transit factory leave the UK. We deliberately made it happen in our Schools, our Councils, our employment laws, our tax system, and in the way that we disrespected people who made stuff for a living.

 

[markjay]

50,000 people in Siicon Glen in Scotland were making 3 out of 10 personal computers sold in Europe in the 1980's. big disk drives, minicomputers, and some mainframes.

Two thirds of Europe's ATM's used to be made by the 6,000 people at NCR in Dundee.

Scottish computer companies: IBM Greenock, Sun, HP, Texas Instruments, Compaq, WANG. It was quite a boom from the mid 1970's until 2000.

All on the back of tariff walls, and Scottish Development grants. When the walls and grants went away, so did the manufacturing.

England? Well obviously, ICL, RACAL and so on. IBM: not so much, although Portsmouth had two thousand people manufacturing at North Harbour, Havant making 360's, 370's and even water-cooled mainframes.

However, much as we LOATHE manufacturing anything, there will be many more people working on "digital" in Scotland now than were ever in Computer manufacturing. Computer games (which is bigger business than the film industry), software, finance and insurance have all boomed and replaced that silly manufacturing stuff, which was often just building products based on foreign component imports.

We don't manufacture because we don't want to manufacture. We want to do the more value-added stuff.

A friend who holds a senior position in an international investment bank told me that they won't touch any business in the manufacturing sector - massive capital investment up front, complex operational and logistics issues, huge exposure to volatile markets, unexpected environmental regulations - it's considered a 'dirty' business, and this includes all car manufacturers worldwide, including the seemingly more-successful Japanese and Korean companies.

The only exception is Tesla - they won't invest in it, but they understand that Tesla's high market valuation stems not from these ability to build cars, but because of their IPR and the potential of licensing their tech to other car makers In future.

Elon Musk may say that they do not patent their inventions, but this does not mean that their software isn't protected by copyright.

Once you look at Tesla as a tech compbay with IPR for some unparalleled software, its market valuation starts to make sense (well, to the extent that the valuation of any tech company makes sense....).

 

[BIGDOG]

Have to admit that the post had an uncharacteristically Donald Rumsfeldish aroma to it.

Gibberish?

 

[SmartAmg]

Gibberish?

Cobblers?

 

[BTB 500]

The availability of repair services for Tesla batteries is therefore neither here not there when it comes to life span. Unless, of course, your argument is that Tesla's battery reliability is so poor that few batteries rarely get to see their full service life span?

Yes, exactly that. It may be decades before a battery becomes unusable on the basis of reduced capacity.

The test was set out to to see if concerns around battery longevity are justified. And the answer was overwhelmingly no.

As above slow degradation is largely irrelevant in terms of longevity. A car doesn't become a garden ornament because the usable capacity has dropped by a certain percentage - it just has less range. The concern that most people have is a pack error that immediately render the car immobile, and anecdotal evidence is that Teslas aren't immune to this.

Then we're into battery repairs, which none of the car manufacturers will do (they just replace the whole pack with a new one). This has been discussed before (including the reasons why aftermarket repairers typically offer little or no warranty on their work).

 

[Bellow]

As above slow degradation is largely irrelevant in terms of longevity. A car doesn't become a garden ornament because the usable capacity has dropped by a certain percentage - it just has less range. The concern that most people have is a pack error that immediately render the car immobile, and anecdotal evidence is that Teslas aren't immune to this.

Then we're into battery repairs, which none of the car manufacturers will do (they just replace the whole pack with a new one). This has been discussed before (including the reasons why aftermarket repairers typically offer little or no warranty on their work).

That spooks me. I wouldn't accept an ICE that could ground the vehicle because of the failure of one small component of hundreds. This is quite a technical aspect but the thing is, most people have experience of lap top batteries - not all favourable. And it's common knowledge that EV batteries are just multiples of lap top batteries.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

A friend who holds a senior position in an international investment bank told me that they won't touch any business in the manufacturing sector - massive capital investment up front, complex operational and logistics issues, huge exposure to volatile markets, unexpected environmental regulations - it's considered a 'dirty' business, and this includes all car manufacturers worldwide, including the seemingly more-successful Japanese and Korean companies.

As I said, best left to the Asians.

We can talk about whether how investment banks choose to invest in Africa, South America, and the Middle East later.

 

[markjay]

It may be decades before a battery becomes unusable on the basis of reduced capacity... The concern that most people have is a pack error that immediately render the car immobile....

...or that it will spontaneously combust, or that FSD will drive the car into a boat on a trailer, or that they won't be able to sell the car due to massive deprecation, etc.

However, you quoted my post regarding battery degradation when posting links to battery repair. May I ask why?

 

[markjay]

That spooks me. I wouldn't accept an ICE that could ground the vehicle because of the failure of one small component of hundreds. This is quite a technical aspect but the thing is, most people have experience of lap top batteries - not all favourable. And it's common knowledge that EV batteries are just multiples of lap top batteries.

That's fine if you're driving a pre-1980 car.

But modern cars have dozens of tiny electronic sensor, the failure of any one of these will often either render the car immobile or induce limp mod, and yet brave people take the risk and drive these cars with complex modern electronics daily. Go figure...

 

[BTB 500]

However, you quoted my post regarding battery degradation when posting links to battery repair. May I ask why?

Because one Tesla having 8% less range than when it was new really doesn't 'overwhelmingly' disprove concerns about battery longevity.

Hard data on failed/replaced battery packs by vehicle age would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Bellow]

That's fine if you're driving a pre-1980 car.

But modern cars have dozens of tiny electronic sensor, the failure of any one of these will often either render the car immobile or induce limp mod, and yet brave people take the risk and drive these cars with complex modern electronics daily. Go figure...

Cheap, easily accessed replaceable parts. No comparison to a failed cell within battery pack with a price tag deep into five figures. Repairs when possible are without warranty. Give me ICE all day long, every day.

 

[markjay]

Because one Tesla having 8% less range than when it was new really doesn't 'overwhelmingly' disprove concerns about battery longevity.

Hard data on failed/replaced battery packs by vehicle age would be a step in the right direction.

I am afraid that your logic fails me... how does repairs and faults info relate to battery degradation with usage data?

 

[BTB 500]

That's fine if you're driving a pre-1980 car.

But modern cars have dozens of tiny electronic sensor, the failure of any one of these will often either render the car immobile or induce limp mod, and yet brave people take the risk and drive these cars with complex modern electronics daily. Go figure...

Presumably modern EVs also have a fair few electronic sensors? Having one fail (in any car) isn't ideal, but replacing it is usually fairly simple and cheap. Compared to replacing an EV battery pack, anyway.

A Tesla 100 kWh battery pack contains 8,256 mass-produced small cells btw.

I am afraid that your logic fails me... how does repairs and faults info relate to battery degradation with usage data?

The quote you posted was this:

"To help answer this What Car? also tested a nine-year-old Tesla Model S with 258,000 miles on the clock.​

​

The test was set out to to see if concerns around battery longevity are justified. And the answer was overwhelmingly no.​

​

Despite the Model S still being on its original battery and having covered a staggering almost 260,000 miles (effectively travelling to the moon), the test showed the Model S had lost just 8 per cent of its original capacity."​

My point is that people are not concerned that a 9 year old EV will lose 8% of range. They are concerned that some of the many thousands of cells in the battery will fail prematurely, requiring a hugely expensive and/or un-guaranteed repair.

 

[SmartAmg]

Presumably modern EVs also have a fair few electronic sensors? Having one fail (in any car) isn't ideal, but replacing it is usually fairly simple and cheap. Compared to replacing an EV battery pack, anyway.

A Tesla 100 kWh battery pack contains 8,256 mass-produced small cells btw.




The quote you posted was this:

"To help answer this What Car? also tested a nine-year-old Tesla Model S with 258,000 miles on the clock.​

​

The test was set out to to see if concerns around battery longevity are justified. And the answer was overwhelmingly no.​

​

Despite the Model S still being on its original battery and having covered a staggering almost 260,000 miles (effectively travelling to the moon), the test showed the Model S had lost just 8 per cent of its original capacity."​

My point is that people are not concerned that a 9 year old EV will lose 8% of range. They are concerned that some of the many thousands of cells in the battery will fail prematurely, requiring a hugely expensive and/or un-guaranteed repair.

Then, they don't get one, then. Simple's.

 

[markjay]

Presumably modern EVs also have a fair few electronic sensors? Having one fail (in any car) isn't ideal, but replacing it is usually fairly simple and cheap. Compared to replacing an EV battery pack, anyway.

A Tesla 100 kWh battery pack contains 8,256 mass-produced small cells btw.




The quote you posted was this:

"To help answer this What Car? also tested a nine-year-old Tesla Model S with 258,000 miles on the clock.​

​

The test was set out to to see if concerns around battery longevity are justified. And the answer was overwhelmingly no.​

​

Despite the Model S still being on its original battery and having covered a staggering almost 260,000 miles (effectively travelling to the moon), the test showed the Model S had lost just 8 per cent of its original capacity."​

My point is that people are not concerned that a 9 year old EV will lose 8% of range. They are concerned that some of the many thousands of cells in the battery will fail prematurely, requiring a hugely expensive and/or un-guaranteed repair.

To bellow's point - if you're stranded, you're stranded... how complicated or expensive the repair will be once the car has been towed to the dealer, is another matter.

I can fully understand why you might not want to be the owner of an EV that's no longer covered by manufacturer's warranty, but I don't see the connection with the fear of breaking down at the roadside.

Unless there's data to show that you're more likely to become stranded in an EV than in an ICE car?

However, you may be right in that people are (wrongly) concerned about unexpected EV battery failure leaving them stranded at the roadside, because of the anti-EV media spouting alarmist rubbish about EV batteries.

But, again, if this is indeed the case, then can we separate psychology from electronics, and find out if an EV is in fact more likely to leave you stranded? Or are people just worried because the journos managed to scare them?

 

[Bellow]

To bellow's point - if you're stranded, you're stranded... how complicated or expensive the repair will be once the car has been towed to the dealer, is another matter.

I can fully understand why you might not want to be the owner of an EV that's no longer covered by manufacturer's warranty, but I don't see the connection with the fear of breaking down at the roadside.

Unless there's data to show that you're more likely to become stranded in an EV than in an ICE car?

However, you may be right in that people are (wrongly) concerned about unexpected EV battery failure leaving them stranded at the roadside, because of the anti-EV media spouting alarmist rubbish about EV batteries.

But, again, if this is indeed the case, then can we separate psychology from electronics, and find out if an EV is in fact more likely to leave you stranded? Or are people just worried because the journos managed to scare them?

OK, 'stranded' is lazy shorthand for 'breakdown'. The difference between ICE and EV breakdown is the ensuing cost. Being stranded is an inconvenience for sure, a five figure sum for a battery repair will be catastrophic for many. Not even complete engine failure (this side of exotica) with ICE gets close to the cost of replacing a battery.