The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

A Chinese copy of the Porsche Taycan priced at launch as a loss leader. Ripping other people off is something to celebrate?

That's a naive view of the Taycan and of the economics of China.

If the Taycan, which hasn't been a success, is so easy to copy and undercut, why haven't other European and North American manufacturers already done it? It's more than five years since I saw them coming out of the new Tacan building in Stuttgart, so the tech must have been visible for more than a decade.

It's naive to say that the Chinese are ripping off Nokia and selling smartphones as a loss leader. The whole industry from phones to cars is more agile, more proactive, and faster to adapt than the West.

$30k local prices is a lot of money in a country where an ordinary EV is $15k

Will it be as good as a Taycan ? Obviously not. But will it be good enough for its target market? Certainly.

How many very bright young people do you know that have decided to work in car manufacture, rather than other stuff? I only know two, at JLR. Clever kids head off in other directions: from optics to materials, from bean counting to law, and we pay that price.

 

[ChipChop]

Be honest @Bellow and the other anti's on here like @ChipChop . Even if electric was 100% green and free and you were given an EV with a 1000 mile range (that you could charge in 5 minutes.......because you NEVER stop for lunch or a slash!) for free with free insurance I think that you would still find a reason that you should drive ICE and why they are better!!!!

As I've said many times....I don't like them and hopefully will never own one through choice......but some of the anti EV stuff that people come up with on here is hilarious.....much of it being just nonsense.....but it makes me laugh if nothing else.

The truth is the ICE is still better than the EV. Evolution (ICE to EV) without improvement is regression.

 

[Bellow]

Be honest @Bellow and the other anti's on here like @ChipChop . Even if electric was 100% green and free and you were given an EV with a 1000 mile range (that you could charge in 5 minutes.......because you NEVER stop for lunch or a slash!) for free with free insurance I think that you would still find a reason that you should drive ICE and why they are better!!!!

You are just so wrong. Long before you arrived on this forum I was advocating for EVs and in particular the ability to use the EV as part of the grid. That was ten + years ago but what is actually on offer is no where close to that.
After my last post I did think of it from the perspective you cite. Apart from the absurdity of 1000 mile range replenished in 5 minutes, someone could plonk a suitably sized EV on my driveway - and I'd still be sat in the village of an evening with sod all to do but wait for it to recharge.
And you are expert too on Scottish weather are you? Based on what experience? People die here when they get it wrong. I don't intend to be one of them.

As I've said many times....I don't like them and hopefully will never own one through choice......but some of the anti EV stuff that people come up with on here is hilarious.....much of it being just nonsense.....but it makes me laugh if nothing else.

So you keep saying. Alright for everyone else but not for you. Well I don't take direction from the half assed dictatorial.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You're the money guy. Tell us, did Tesla turn a profit on those cars - or was it trading carbon credits that brought the cash in?

Moi ?

How do you measure "turning a profit on cars?" VAG doesn't really make that much money out of assembling vehicles. The majority of last year's €23,000,000,000 profit was from finance, insurance, service and parts. Helped by various offshore tax shenanigans.

As we all know, Tesla didn't make a bean until Covid, and last years €15 billion profit was a surprise, but what happens going forward? If I knew I'd be sitting on my new yacht off the Bahamas.

They say it's now $5k per car, with the battery and storage business breaking even, but the essence of Tesla's success has always been its share price. As long as people value it so highly, it can keep staff and borrow money cheaply. How long can that last ? Not long now, surely, now that the Koreans and Chinese are copying their IP, and manufacturing close to where the batteries are actually made

 

[Bellow]

Moi ?

How do you measure "turning a profit on cars?" VAG doesn't really make that much money out of assembling vehicles. The majority of last year's €23,000,000,000 profit was from finance, insurance, service and parts. Helped by various offshore tax shenanigans.

As we all know, Tesla didn't make a bean until Covid, and last years €15 billion profit was a surprise, but what happens going forward? If I knew I'd be sitting on my new yacht off the Bahamas.

They say it's now $5k per car, with the battery and storage business breaking even, but the essence of Tesla's success has always been its share price. As long as people value it so highly, it can keep staff and borrow money cheaply. How long can that last ? Not long now, surely, now that the Koreans and Chinese are copying their tech

Can I conclude that the west cannot simultaneously solely sell EVs and make a profit?

 

[BTB 500]

If you can’t charge an EV at home, can’t charge at work, never go to a supermarket, never stop for toilet breaks whilst travelling, never drink coffee, never eat at McDonalds, never go out for a meal, never go to the pub or cinema, etc then it means that you have to go out of your way to charge.

EVs clearly don’t work well (yet) for those people with the most extreme cases - and yours is almost certainly one but most people do do those things or could do those things, and could do those things whilst recharging with relatively little adjustment to what they already do.

One observation is that EV owners tend to (quite naturally) form opinions based on their own circumstances and experiences. Zapmap's "EV with no home charging vs ICE" comparison that was mentioned a while back was based on the EV using slow lamp post charging 80% of the time. Which is fine if you have lamp post chargers anywhere near where you live, but AFAIK that's pretty rare outside major cities. We're in the West Midlands (not some remote Scottish Isle!), and the nearest town to us (population 13,000 plus) still only has five public charging locations:



Not very practical if you live there and don't have your own offroad parking. Not even ideal if you just work there, go shopping there, etc.

Taking those sites from the top down ... Aldi (right on the Northern edge of the town) has two Shell outlets (one 22 kW and one 11 kW):




There's a BP Pulse at the fire station with two 7.2 kW outlets, but that site seems to have been out of service for some time:




Then there's a Shell station with two 47kW outlets at 70p / kWh, showing 'unknown status' at the moment. Looking at the comments someone mentioned that they only got 18 kW there a month ago.




Finally the two main car parks in the town have 8 outlets (four 22 kW, four 7.3 kW):




... and 16 outlets (ten 22 kW, six 7.3 kW), although two are out of order:



All of the car park outlets charge 45-48p / kWh from midnight to 7AM and 52-55p / kWh the rest of the time (seems a bit steep for 7.3 kW?). Many of them also have a 30p connection fee.

So that's a grand total of 26 working charging outlets for the whole town. If you widen the search there's a McDonalds to the West with four outlets (two 60 kW, two 120 kW - all 85p / kWh) although two of them are out of order:





But that's it:

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Can I conclude that the west cannot simultaneously solely sell EVs and make a profit?

No, what makes you say that?

We know that mass market ICE's can't make a profit from manufacturing. Well documented across all markets. There's no money to be made from making Fiestas, Corsas, and most European small cars.

Tesla's first decade didn't make a profit, but last year it made $15 billion. Tesla, an EV company in "the West" is now profitable.

The Chinese have 20 million EV's already on the streets. They're making a fortune and expanding like there's no tomorrow.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

One observation is that EV owners tend to (quite naturally) form opinions based on their own circumstances and experiences. Zapmap's "EV with no home charging vs ICE" comparison that was mentioned a while back was based on the EV using slow lamp post charging 80% of the time. Which is fine if you have lamp post chargers anywhere near where you live, but AFAIK that's pretty rare outside major cities. We're in the West Midlands (not some remote Scottish Isle!), and the nearest town to us (population 13,000 plus) still only has five public charging locations:

View attachment 162974

Not very practical if you live there and don't have your own offroad parking. Not even ideal if you just work there, go shopping there, etc.

Taking those sites from the top down ... Aldi (right on the Northern edge of the town) has two Shell outlets (one 22 kW and one 11 kW):

View attachment 162975


There's a BP Pulse at the fire station with two 7.2 kW outlets, but that site seems to have been out of service for some time:

View attachment 162976


Then there's a Shell station with two 47kW outlets at 70p / kWh, showing 'unknown status' at the moment. Looking at the comments someone mentioned that they only got 18 kW there a month ago.

View attachment 162977


Finally the two main car parks in the town have 8 outlets (four 22 kW, four 7.3 kW):

View attachment 162979


... and 16 outlets (ten 22 kW, six 7.3 kW), although two are out of order:

View attachment 162978

All of the car park outlets charge 45-48p / kWh from midnight to 7AM and 52-55p / kWh the rest of the time (seems a bit steep for 7.3 kW?). Many of them also have a 30p connection fee.

So that's a grand total of 26 working charging outlets for the whole town. If you widen the search there's a McDonalds to the West with four outlets (two 60 kW, two 120 kW - all 85p / kWh) although two of them are out of order:


View attachment 162981


But that's it:

View attachment 162982

Are you saying that you don't have electricity at home yet ?

 

[Bellow]

No, what makes you say that?

We know that mass market ICE's can't make a profit from manufacturing. Well documented across all markets. There's no money to be made from making Fiestas, Corsas, and most European small cars.

Tesla's first decade didn't make a profit, but last year it made $15 billion.

The Chinese have 20 million EV's already on the streets. They're making a fortune and expanding like there's no tomorrow.

Oh! I see, China is now part of the western world. I have to admit, I never saw that coming. Anyway, how about the others - say, VW - how is it doing?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Oh! I see, China is now part of the western world. I have to admit, I never saw that coming. Anyway, how about the others - say, VW - how is it doing?

Sorry, where did I say that China is part of the Western world? Were you even asking about "the Western world?"

Why would you want to compare a new market start up, that's the most valuable car manufacturer in the world, ($700 bn)

with a one hundred year old car company that's the largest car producer in the world ? Tesla's worth fourteen times that of Volkswagen. ($700bn vs $50 bn)

(Don't laugh too much at the valuation, your pension and insurance policies are the big holders of Tesla and VW)

 

[markjay]

You're the money guy. Tell us, did Tesla turn a profit on those cars - or was it trading carbon credits that brought the cash in?

Good point - did Aston Martin ever turn a profit on any car they sold (while they were still independent) - or did they only make money on refurbishing classic models for collectors and enthusiasts?

My point is that this is how some parts of this industry work, yet it was never held against AM. But when it comes to Tesla, now it's a bad thing. Makes you wonder why.

 

[ALFAitalia]

So you keep saying. Alright for everyone else but not for you. Well I don't take direction from the half assed dictatorial.

Not at all.....but the way you and other talk about it is if you are being made to run an EV at knifepoint. I don't like them......but not because I think it would not work for me......but if I bought one tomorrow with say a 250 to 300 mile range it would work perfectly for me.....and how many people really do more that that per day on a regular basis (part from those that exaggerate on here!!), it would save me a fair whack on fuel, my meter is at the front of the house for easy charger install, I can fit three (four at a push) cars on my drive so no on street charging and because i would only need to charge away from home three of four time per year the cost of that is irrelevant. Charging at night and never charging at stations on this imaginary 300 mile range car would give me over 100,000 miles per year......!!!! My wife only does about 3000 mile pa....shes the perfect EV cusomer.....she does not want one at the moment......but I thing she will go that way next time. Look at all the high mileage reps in Teslas (we have a couple that come to my work)....they make it work. I think people just like thinking up reasons it wont work for them rather how easy it would be to make it work with only minimal changes.
You don't like them...we get it.

 

[markjay]

And, it might be worth having a look at how much money MB makes from selling cars, as opposed to selling parts, selling finance, and servicing through their dealer network? But Tesla must make its profit from selling new cars. Talk about raising the bar ...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Good point - did Aston Martin ever turn a profit on any car they sold (while they were still independent) - or did they only make money on refurbishing classic models for collectors and enthusiasts?
My point is that this is how some parts of this industry work, yet it was never held against AM. But when it comes to Tesla, now it's a bad thing. Makes you wonder why.

To be fair, Aston has never really been a car company. It's just a rich man's toy. No-one expects it to make a profit. Or even a drivable car.

But it'll be sold to the Chinese within the next decade, so hopefully they'll turn it round for the 21st century.

 

[Bellow]

Sorry, where did I say that China is part of the Western world? Were you even asking about "the Western world?"

Can I conclude that the west cannot simultaneously solely sell EVs and make a profit?

Between the and cannot.

Why would you want to compare a new market start up, that's the most valuable car manufacturer in the world, ($700 bn)

with a one hundred year old car company that's the largest car producer in the world ? Tesla's worth fourteen times that of Volkswagen. ($700bn vs $50 bn)

(Don't laugh too much at the valuation, your pension and insurance policies are the big holders of Tesla and VW)

Thing is, I was told that when a company - new or old - can't turn a profit it closes down and workers lose livelihoods and that there is a detrimental effect for everyone when that happens. So, it's not the age of the company that is relevant but its financial wellbeing - a question you appear determined not to answer with regard to WESTERN (that word again) manufacturers of EVs - especially European ones.

 

[ALFAitalia]

The truth is the ICE is still better than the EV. Evolution (ICE to EV) without improvement is regression.

Defends of your definition of "better" I guess.

ICE being "better" handling, nicer noise, longer range, quicker to refuel (if you are one of the sub 20% that EVER charge anywhere other than home)....than yes.

But if you define it as greener cleaner and less damaging of kids lungs and the planet (depending whether you look at CO or particulates), generally quicker and much more quiet, and (for 80 % plus) not wasting all that time at petrol station when your car can refuel when you sleep for a fraction of the cost of an ICE car!!!)) and the undoubted future of cars for at least the next few decades (don't say hydrogen or sythetics.....at the moment they are just a joke as real alternative to derv/petrol......maybe one day).....than its a big no!!

 

[Mactech]

One observation is that EV owners tend to (quite naturally) form opinions based on their own circumstances and experiences. Zapmap's "EV with no home charging vs ICE" comparison that was mentioned a while back was based on the EV using slow lamp post charging 80% of the time. Which is fine if you have lamp post chargers anywhere near where you live, but AFAIK that's pretty rare outside major cities. We're in the West Midlands (not some remote Scottish Isle!), and the nearest town to us (population 13,000 plus) still only has five public charging locations:

View attachment 162974

Not very practical if you live there and don't have your own offroad parking. Not even ideal if you just work there, go shopping there, etc.

Taking those sites from the top down ... Aldi (right on the Northern edge of the town) has two Shell outlets (one 22 kW and one 11 kW):

View attachment 162975


There's a BP Pulse at the fire station with two 7.2 kW outlets, but that site seems to have been out of service for some time:

View attachment 162976


Then there's a Shell station with two 47kW outlets at 70p / kWh, showing 'unknown status' at the moment. Looking at the comments someone mentioned that they only got 18 kW there a month ago.

View attachment 162977


Finally the two main car parks in the town have 8 outlets (four 22 kW, four 7.3 kW):

View attachment 162979


... and 16 outlets (ten 22 kW, six 7.3 kW), although two are out of order:

View attachment 162978

All of the car park outlets charge 45-48p / kWh from midnight to 7AM and 52-55p / kWh the rest of the time (seems a bit steep for 7.3 kW?). Many of them also have a 30p connection fee.

So that's a grand total of 26 working charging outlets for the whole town. If you widen the search there's a McDonalds to the West with four outlets (two 60 kW, two 120 kW - all 85p / kWh) although two of them are out of order:


View attachment 162981


But that's it:

View attachment 162982

And just to think that would have been slap on my route from my Biddulph home to my mothers near Welshpool if:

• I hadn't moved to Norfolk
• My mother hadn't moved to Gerrards Cross
• ...and I'd had an EV four years ago

 

[Bellow]

Not at all.....but the way you and other talk about it is if you are being made to run an EV at knifepoint. I don't like them......but not because I think it would not work for me......but if I bought one tomorrow with say a 250 to 300 mile range it would work perfectly for me....

Question: Can you afford to buy one with that range? If the answer is no then obviously such an EV is unsuitable for you. I didn't see you spend that kind of money on your most recent acquisition.

You don't like them...we get it.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I am against the punitive measures that will impact ICE (sooner than we realise). That is all. Let EV compete with ICE using appropriate fuels.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Thing is, I was told that when a company - new or old - can't turn a profit it closes down and workers lose livelihoods and that there is a detrimental effect for everyone when that happens. So, it's not the age of the company that is relevant but its financial wellbeing - a question you appear determined not to answer with regard to WESTERN (that word again) manufacturers of EVs - especially European ones.

You were badly informed.

The margin on Britain's Top 10 best selling cars, has always been close to zero. (With the exception of the Tesla since 2022)

Pop into your local restaurant: the profit on a one course meal is close to zero.

Why aren't bright kids rushing into Agriculture or car manufacture? Because it's not "profitable" in the short term, or well paid.

"TV's Jeremy Clarkson" doesn't own a farm to turn a profit each year. It doesn't. It's more complicated than that.

 

[markjay]

To be fair, Aston has never really been a car company. It's just a rich man's toy. No-one expects it to make a profit.

I think you'll fine that its various owners over the years (including one David Brown) disagree.