The EV fact thread

[ALFAitalia]

@Bellow : Can you afford to buy one with that range? If the answer is no then obviously such an EV is unsuitable for you. I didn't see you spend that kind of money on your most recent acquisition.​

I could spend more on a car (funds for retirement is my number one priority at the moment)....not new car money (to be honest I really don't like many new cars....ICE or EV).....but I certainly could stretch to a good used EV if required......because as the antis are constantly reminding the rest of us....EVs depreciate like stones because "no one wants them" second hand!!!! Even some Teslas are sub £15k if you dont mind a few miles.

 

[Bellow]

You were badly informed.

Good to here. We can all forget about the northern English towns and cities ravaged by unemployment since the traditional industries departed.

The margin on Britain's Top 10 best selling cars, has always been close to zero. (With the exception of the Tesla since 2022)

Close to zero - but on the right side of it. Makes a difference I heard.

Pop into your local restaurant: the profit on a one course meal is close to zero.

Why aren't bright kids rushing into Agriculture or car manufacture? Because it's not "profitable" in the short term, or well paid.

"TV's Jeremy Clarkson" doesn't own a farm to turn a profit each year. It doesn't. It's more complicated than that.

Turning an honest profit seems to be either very difficult or somehow dirty. A shame it's been abandoned.

 

[Bellow]

Defends of your definition of "better" I guess.

ICE being "better" handling, nicer noise, longer range, quicker to refuel (if you are one of the sub 20% that EVER charge anywhere other than home)....than yes.

But if you define it as greener cleaner and less damaging of kids lungs and the planet (depending whether you look at CO or particulates), generally quicker and much more quiet, and (for 80 % plus) not wasting all that time at petrol station when your car can refuel when you sleep for a fraction of the cost of an ICE car!!!)) and the undoubted future of cars for at least the next few decades (don't say hydrogen or sythetics.....at the moment they are just a joke as real alternative to derv/petrol......maybe one day).....than its a big no!!

You just bought one.

I could spend more on a car (funds for retirement is my number one priority at the moment)....not new car money (to be honest I really don't like many new cars....ICE or EV).....but I certainly could stretch to a good used EV if required......because as the antis are constantly reminding the rest of us....EVs depreciate like stones because "no one wants them" second hand!!!!

That's a no then.
I don't imagine those driving an EV had to sacrifice their retirement for it.

 

[ChipChop]

Good point - did Aston Martin ever turn a profit on any car they sold (while they were still independent) - or did they only make money on refurbishing classic models for collectors and enthusiasts?

My point is that this is how some parts of this industry work, yet it was never held against AM. But when it comes to Tesla, now it's a bad thing. Makes you wonder why.

Would a better analogy not be to compare Tesla to DeLorean not Aston Martin? Funded by public money but HMG pulled the plug on DeLorean. Elon Musk however has lead a charmed business life post Paypal.

Defends of your definition of "better" I guess.

ICE being "better" handling, nicer noise, longer range, quicker to refuel (if you are one of the sub 20% that EVER charge anywhere other than home)....than yes.

But if you define it as greener cleaner and less damaging of kids lungs and the planet (depending whether you look at CO or particulates), generally quicker and much more quiet, and (for 80 % plus) not wasting all that time at petrol station when your car can refuel when you sleep for a fraction of the cost of an ICE car!!!)) and the undoubted future of cars for at least the next few decades (don't say hydrogen or sythetics.....at the moment they are just a joke as real alternative to derv/petrol......maybe one day).....than its a big no!!

That will be why you still drive an ICE then. Why would you want to spend all that money on something that is demonstrably worse at being a car. You would have to be mad or in the case of the company car driver bribed to make the switch.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I think you'll fine that its various owners over the years (including one David Brown) disagree.

When did they make a profit?

Apart from selling it to the next sucker?

 

[markjay]

here.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Be honest @Bellow and the other anti's on here like @ChipChop . Even if electric was 100% green and free and you were given an EV with a 1000 mile range (that you could charge in 5 minutes.......because you NEVER stop for lunch or a slash!) for free with free insurance I think that you would still find a reason that you should drive ICE and why they are better!!!!

This offer came close to offering what you suggest - including the green electricity - but no takers from MBClub. All places taken now.

The EV fact thread | Electric Mercedes models

If you see a Porsche Taycan/Macan, Mercedes EQA/EQS and later a Neue Boxster with a prototype sticker on the back bumper then give the driver a knowing smile.

 

[Bellow]

This offer came close to offering what you suggest - including the green electricity - but no takers from MBClub. All places taken now.

The EV fact thread | Electric Mercedes models

If you see a Porsche Taycan/Macan, Mercedes EQA/EQS and later a Neue Boxster with a prototype sticker on the back bumper then give the driver a knowing smile.

I saw that but no business use ruled me out. The 'challenging case' aspect though. Mine would have been (the lesser one) of poor mobile signal when at home for the app, but the principal one would have been using public chargers - for reasons already stated. Unless there is something inherent in the new tech being tested that circumvents that, then the 'challenge' is insurmountable.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I saw that but no business use ruled me out. The 'challenging case' aspect though. Mine would have been (the lesser one) of poor mobile signal when at home for the app, but the principal one would have been using public chargers - for reasons already stated. Unless there is something inherent in the new tech being tested that circumvents that, then the 'challenge' is insurmountable.

When I posted I had you in mind as being an ideal candidate except for your need for business use. Based upon my understanding of your posts I would say that yours is about as extreme as use cases get in the UK. It would have been a great test of technology, combined with your knowledge and experience of cars and engineering.

I would say 99% people who don’t want an EV, but say that EV, infrastructure and everything which go with it is us as. I believe that they could actually make an EV work, but choose to stand behind EV albeit without the benefit of experience. For that reason, for most participants it’s really a psychological test.

However there’s still the 1% - of which I’d say you are one - where driving an EV would often work, but not almost always work and so couldn’t replace an ICE. If most of those who could did, then those who can’t probably won’t have to for long enough that it doesn’t matter. In time most of those who could will.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The truth is the ICE is still better than the EV. Evolution (ICE to EV) without improvement is regression.

Based upon your experience of driving EVs which specific things about those EVs would you say is sufficiently worse than their ICE equivalent to make them unviable as an alternative. I’d also be really interested to hear which things you think were better or the same?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Can I conclude that the west cannot simultaneously solely sell EVs and make a profit?

It’s possible but only on more expensive models where people - at home and abroad, especially in the Far East are prepared to pay for the perceived prestige of buying an expensive Western car. It’a true for EVs, it’s true for ICE and it’s true for most things we buy.

The reality is that it costs much less to make most things in the Far East and ship it to the West, and most people value low cost as being more important than where it's made, and for as long as that’s the case then the market for UK made goods is very limited - it’s only those prepared to pay.

We recently went to the Wedgewood factory to buy crockery which was made in Stoke on Trent, recognised as being the world capital of ceramics. Even though they still have a factory there, most of their production comes from Indonesia. Made to very high standards and still very expensive, however only their top ranges are made in Stoke

Ironically the people who value Wedgwood and yhe UK manufacturered ranges are mostly from overseas, and especially from the Far East. When we were there the guy serving us told us that more than a quarter of people buying from the factory shop are from the Far East. They don’t just buy it but they travel to buy it.

 

[Bellow]

When I posted I had you in mind as being an ideal candidate except for your need for business use. Based upon my understanding of your posts I would say that yours is about as extreme as use cases get in the UK. It would have been a great test of technology, combined with your knowledge and experience of cars and engineering.

I would say 99% people who don’t want an EV, but say that EV, infrastructure and everything which go with it is us as. I believe that they could actually make an EV work, but choose to stand behind EV albeit without the benefit of experience. For that reason, for most participants it’s really a psychological test.

However there’s still the 1% - of which I’d say you are one - where driving an EV would often work, but not almost always work and so couldn’t replace an ICE. If most of those who could did, then those who can’t probably won’t have to for long enough that it doesn’t matter. In time most of those who could will.

It has become apparent that I have been cast by some (not you) as anti-EV. I'm not. Firstly, I refer to an earlier post referring to me advocating for EVs here, a decade ago. Secondly, as I've said before, successful adoption of EV lessens the possible requirement to squeeze ICE off of the roads to enhance EV take-up is actually in my interest. Thirdly. while my quest for alternative fuels and new engines to utilise them may make me appear anti-EV in truth the new breed of engine I envisage is an engine simpler than current and can be simplified further by integrating it with electric propulsion. The ratio of the mix dependent on its intended use. My needs obviously tend toward the heavier end of iCE, easy on the E component - city use the opposite. Maybe, there is already a hybrid out there close to what I envisage and the fact that they are selling well suggests they are in tune with the public's needs/wants. That a new breed of engine could make them cheaper - or liberate cash to be spent on the electrical aspect - is surely to be welcomed. But closed off by the overzealous legislation that is the death knell for ICE - and, EVangalists who see only what they want to see and that is only, frankly, their own self interest. The polarisation of opposing camps isn't helping at all and, with a sensible mix of ICE and electric the demerits of each would be reduced.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

One observation is that EV owners tend to (quite naturally) form opinions based on their own circumstances and experiences.

I’d agree with that 100%. Another observation might be that non-EV owners tend to (quite naturally) form opinions based upon preconceived ideas and comments which match their preconceived ideas. That’s not a criticism, that’s how human psychology works l, we find ways to prove ourselves right.

I believe ethat’s the reason that EVs are such a hot topic. People with real world experience point out where comments are do not reflect reality, and those without real world experience comment back without the benefit of experience.

It’s also the reason why EV uptake will continue because overtime people will realise that the reality is far removed from what they thought it would be. Being a passenger in an EV - which many people will in the fullness of time - is enough to make people consider it for a future purchase.

 

[BTB 500]

Are you saying that you don't have electricity at home yet ?

I have lots of electricity.

Just pointing out that the ability to top up an EV whenever you're visiting the shops, pub, cinema, restaurant, coffee shop, public convenience, etc. isn't as universally available as is often suggested.

And that the general lack of public chargers in some populated areas would currently make EVs impractical for people who don't have the ability to charge at home. The RAC Foundation reported a few years ago that nationally 35% of UK households lacked off-street parking or the 'potential' for it. This varies hugely by area though:

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/standing_still_off_street_parking_by_LA_A-Z.pdf

 

[TC350]

I have lots of electricity.

Just pointing out that the ability to top up an EV whenever you're visiting the shops, pub, cinema, restaurant, coffee shop, public convenience, etc. isn't as universally available as is often suggested.

And that the general lack of public chargers in some populated areas would currently make EVs impractical for people who don't have the ability to charge at home. The RAC Foundation reported a few years ago that nationally 35% of UK households lacked off-street parking or the 'potential' for it. This varies hugely by area though:

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/standing_still_off_street_parking_by_LA_A-Z.pdf

So 65% who can enjoy the benefit of being able to charge their cars at home while they sleep, instead of driving to a smelly fuel station and standing in a puddle on a freezing cold day while they pour expensive petrol/diesel into their cars.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I have lots of electricity.

Just pointing out that the ability to top up an EV whenever you're visiting the shops, pub, cinema, restaurant, coffee shop, public convenience, etc. isn't as universally available as is often suggested.

And that the general lack of public chargers in some populated areas would currently make EVs impractical for people who don't have the ability to charge at home. The RAC Foundation reported a few years ago that nationally 35% of UK households lacked off-street parking or the 'potential' for it. This varies hugely by area though:

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/standing_still_off_street_parking_by_LA_A-Z.pdf

35% of households don’t have provision for offstreet parking, or said another way 65% do. There are more people and cars than households and so taking that statistic at face value the. more than 65% of drivers and cars could potentially charge at home.

Your previous post showed that there were 26 charging points in the town you selected as an example. Like most they will almost all be available almost all of the time, so there’s plenty of capacity for additional EV drivers in the town.

Given that there is a concentration of charging points in the two main car parks in the town, is it reasonable to assume that there will be shops, pub, cinema, restaurant, coffee shop, public convenience in the area?

Of course there’s not a charger at every shop, coffee shop, cinema, car park, but if you have an EV and wish to charge it you can make choices to charge where you could normally go if you can, or go to an alternative if you can’t

For example if traveling a long distance in an EV and need to have pitstop, eat and drink, then you’d choose a location where you could do those things and charge at the same time, which might not be where you’d stop if you didn't need to charge.

It just requires small adjustments, just like having to stop for petrol or diesel as you go about your day requires a small adjustment to stop (at best) or change your route and stop (quite likely). Not many people stop and refill at “any” petrol station.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Good to here. We can all forget about the northern English towns and cities ravaged by unemployment since the traditional industries departed.
Close to zero - but on the right side of it. Makes a difference I heard.
Turning an honest profit seems to be either very difficult or somehow dirty. A shame it's been abandoned.

Really, and which cities are those? Isn't unemployment at virtually the lowest level since it started being recorded properly in 1970 ?

Is your point that you want 15 year olds to carry on going down the mines, even though the railways, the housewives and the steel industry no longer wants their product?

Agreed that if half a million were down the mines, like the good old days, we wouldn't have a pensions and social care crisis, 'cos the miners would all be dead in their 50's & 60's.

"Close to zero" overall, but certainly negative for some and maybe 1% for others.

That's a harsh description of farmers and restaurant workers as "not making an honest profit." TV's Jeremy Clarkson is making a lot of money, and is saving a lot of money, he's just not making a profit out of farming every year.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I have lots of electricity.

Just pointing out that the ability to top up an EV whenever you're visiting the shops, pub, cinema, restaurant, coffee shop, public convenience, etc. isn't as universally available as is often suggested.

And that the general lack of public chargers in some populated areas would currently make EVs impractical for people who don't have the ability to charge at home. The RAC Foundation reported a few years ago that nationally 35% of UK households lacked off-street parking or the 'potential' for it. This varies hugely by area though:

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/standing_still_off_street_parking_by_LA_A-Z.pdf

Do you know what a "household" is ? We have 28 million households in the UK.

Five students living in a terraced house in Newcastle are "five households."

And how many households don't even have a car? That'll be about one in five these days.

So the number of people who can't charge at home, one way or another is still quite small. Which is not an issue as electricity is fairly common all over the UK.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

When people say EVs are too expensive, and tha there aren’t any affordable small EVs then I present to you this, the Mitsubishi iMIEV, with 40 mile (winter) range.

Motoring doesn’t get much less expensive than that, especially for the 65% of households who can potentially park on the road and charge at home. I’m genuinely tempted.



Source: Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Still worried about the battery, or think it’s too old? I present to you the Renault Zoe. Again cheap motoring but the peace of mind comes at a price of £50 per month for the battery lease.



Source: Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale