The EV fact thread

[SmartAmg]

But will apply if I buy a used EV on April 2nd 2026? My comment still stands

Yep. It would actually apply if you bought an EV on 2nd April 2025.

 

[ALFAitalia]

So if I were to buy a used EV, I'd pay £195 pa immediately? That is hardly going to encourage people when they can get ICE and only pay £20 pa (or less!)

......only if the ICE car is older than 2017.....otherwise it will be the same across the board £195 as everything else.

 

[markjay]

Also in the news ... Audi are closing their factory in Belgium in February, pulling the plug on their flagship Q8 e-tron (which is only made there).

The law of unintended consequences...

Electric shock: carmakers battle strict UK electric car rules as big fines loom

As Ford announced cutting 800 UK jobs it said rules forcing companies to sell more EVs each year are ‘unworkable’

www.theguardian.com

"...electric cars must make up 22% of sales of new vehicles this year, rising to 28% in 2025 – albeit with important loopholes that can reduce the target considerably. If they miss their targets, carmakers face fines of up to £15,000 for each vehicle. No carmakers publicly argue with the goal of 80% battery electric cars by 2030, before a complete ban on new petrol and diesel engines in 2035."

That's a catch 22 for car manufacturers. They can only build ICE cars if they also build EVs to the ratio required, or they get fined. But because demand for ICE is strong, they have to build more EVs, which they can't sell because they are making more than there's demand for, and they then have to sell them at a loss. They figured out that it make more sense to make less EVs, and obviously they choose to cut the more expensive models. It's a policy that backfired....

 

[BTB 500]

Does that Make you Happy, the fact, that EVs will be paying Road Tax.

No, not particularly. It was just a comment on the way it was being presented for new EVs i.e. a tiny increase from £0 to £10.

 

[Dryce]

That's a catch 22 for car manufacturers. They can only build ICE cars if they also build EVs to the ratio required, or they get fined. But because demand for ICE is strong, they have to build more EVs, which they can't sell because they are making more than there's demand for, and they then have to sell them at a loss. They figured out that it make more sense to make less EVs, and obviously they choose to cut the more expensive models. It's a policy that backfired....

That doesn't make sense.

Without a change in the rules if they make fewer EVs they end up havig to make fewer ICE or pay large fines.

However

If they realise that expensive EVs are just not allowing them to sell enough EVs then without a regulatory change they will have to make cheaper EVs.

One crazy option might be to build very very cheap EVs - a Twizzy or Ami that is a car rather than a quadricycle - and then package them with a proportion of expensive EVs. If the poxy little EV is cheaper than the fine then they have themselves covered. The downside though - might be that if the poxy EV is usable then they eat up part their market for second cars. So possibly happy customer. Possibly happy regulators. But ultimately we still likely have unhappy manufacturers as they pay to eat their own market.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That doesn't make sense.

Without a change in the rules if they make fewer EVs they end up havig to make fewer ICE or pay large fines.

However

If they realise that expensive EVs are just not allowing them to sell enough EVs then without a regulatory change they will have to make cheaper EVs.

One crazy option might be to build very very cheap EVs - a Twizzy or Ami that is a car rather than a quadricycle - and then package them with a proportion of expensive EVs. If the poxy little EV is cheaper than the fine then they have themselves covered. The downside though - might be that if the poxy EV is usable then they eat up part their market for second cars. So possibly happy customer. Possibly happy regulators. But ultimately we still likely have unhappy manufacturers as they pay to eat their own market.

Although I read on MBClub that there needs to be more small and/or inexpensive EVs, the reality is that people aren’t buying small/inexpensive ICEs, so why would they buy a small/inexpeaive EV if more manufacturers made them?

A while back I asked how many members had bought a brand new small and inexpensive car - whether EV or ICE - and the relative silence was deafening. If we won’t buy them, then who will?

Data below is YTD for 2024 from the SMMT.


Source: Car Registrations

 

[markjay]

That doesn't make sense.

Without a change in the rules if they make fewer EVs they end up havig to make fewer ICE or pay large fines.

However

If they realise that expensive EVs are just not allowing them to sell enough EVs then without a regulatory change they will have to make cheaper EVs.

One crazy option might be to build very very cheap EVs - a Twizzy or Ami that is a car rather than a quadricycle - and then package them with a proportion of expensive EVs. If the poxy little EV is cheaper than the fine then they have themselves covered. The downside though - might be that if the poxy EV is usable then they eat up part their market for second cars. So possibly happy customer. Possibly happy regulators. But ultimately we still likely have unhappy manufacturers as they pay to eat their own market.

Car makers have 3 options:

- Make both lCE cars and EVs to meet market demand, and pay hefty fines for the overproduction of ICE cars.

- Make ICE cars to meet market demand, and make as many EVs as required to avoid fines, then sell the EVs at a loss to clear.

- Make EVs to meet market demand, then cut ICE car production accordingly to avoid fines.

It seems thar quite a few car makers have chosen the latter as the least punitive option.

 

[Bellow]

.

- Make EVs to meet market demand, then cut ICE car production accordingly to avoid fines.

Which makes a mockery of the notion that ICE will be on sale until 2035 and therefore not for decades will anyone be denied ICE.

 

[BTB 500]

The fact that Fiat are now modifying their all electric 500e to take an ICE suggests there is still a strong demand for small cars that aren't BEV?

 

[markjay]

Which makes a mockery of the notion that ICE will be on sale until 2035 and therefore not for decades will anyone be denied ICE.

There are 10 years to go, so anything can happen next year and beyond, but yes this appears to be the current trend.

Made worse by the influx of cheap Chinese EVs that that pull the rug under European carmakers.... they can't compete at the bottom of the EV market, and they can't sell ICE cars unless they sell EVs... catch 22.

 

[markjay]

If you take a global look an EV sales, you'll see that motorists are cash cows in most countries, and the EV take up was good in those countries that used tax breaks to entice EV buyers (e.g. Norway), while in countries where (stingy) governments preferred to rely on squeezing the carmakwrs to force EVs sales, uptake was poor.

Here in the UK the business lease sector is dominated by EVs thanks to significant the tax breaks, but private buyers who do not get similar benefit generally shun it.

In other words, Green governments that put their money where their mouth is, did well, while those who talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, did poorly.

 

[Bellow]

There are 10 years to go, so anything can happen next year and beyond, but yes this appears to be the current trend.

One myth busted then. If you want to or have no alternative but have ICE, best be thinking about buying a new one now before they disappear from the market entirely - or at least the affordable ones at price points that cannot withstand a £15k levy.

Made worse by the influx of cheap Chinese EVs that that pull the rug under European carmakers.... they can't compete at the bottom of the EV market, and they can't sell ICE cars unless they sell EVs... catch 22.

I've been saying that for months if not years. Had alternative fuels been permitted then western manufacturers would have stood a chance against Chinese EVs given that western ICE is still superior to Chinese ICE. Nobody gave a shit about losing western auto manufacturing though so we are now where we are.

In other words, Green governments that put their money where their mouth is, did well, while those who talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, did poorly.

You say ''did well''. We'll see down the line when all they have on offer is Chinese EVs (assuming we are still trading with China) and the fuelling infrastructure and manufacturing plants for ICE have been dismantled, just how well they did.

 

[markjay]

...You say ''did well''. We'll see down the line when all they have on offer is Chinese EVs (assuming we are still trading with China) and the fuelling infrastructure and manufacturing plants for ICE have been dismantled, just how well they did.

Not quite.... Norway and Sweeden are Tesla territory.... and Elon Musk isn't going anywhere any time soon.

You could well argue, however, that not even Tesla can make enough EVs to satisfy demand if (in theory) everyone went the way that Norway and Sweeden did.

I think that initially the Chinese will do well mostly in the LGV sector, where cheap vans attracting low tax and low running costs are a lifeline for small businesses.

 

[BTB 500]

Norway and Sweeden are Tesla territory

Presumably because those countries were early adopters and Tesla was the only serious option at the time? With much more choice now I assume the brand mix there will be changing.

 

[Will]

Could someone explain why it matters (or not) where EVs or ICE vehicles are manufactured, as opposed to other goods and services?

Don’t like Chinese made EVs? Don’t buy one then - there are alternatives.

It’s all about supply and demand. In this day and age, people want the best balance of quality and price. Manufacturing costs are part of that and much of the stuff we buy is made overseas as a result.

Why is this only a problem for EVs - just seems like another excuse to me for those who don’t like the idea of them. Plenty of everyday items and no doubt a large proportion of components/materials used in vehicle manufacturing will come from China already.

Similarly to I’ve said before - someone could make an EV in the UK that costs less than any ICE car, could do 1000 miles on a single charge, tow a caravan at motorway speeds all day etc and someone would still look for a reason not to buy it

 

[Bellow]

Not quite.... Norway and Sweeden are Tesla territory.... and Elon Musk isn't going anywhere any time soon.

Does anyone know where Elon Musk is ''going''?

 

[190]

Could someone explain why it matters (or not) where EVs or ICE vehicles are manufactured, as opposed to other goods and services?

Don’t like Chinese made EVs? Don’t buy one then - there are alternatives.

It’s all about supply and demand. In this day and age, people want the best balance of quality and price. Manufacturing costs are part of that and much of the stuff we buy is made overseas as a result.

Why is this only a problem for EVs - just seems like another excuse to me for those who don’t like the idea of them. Plenty of everyday items and no doubt a large proportion of components/materials used in vehicle manufacturing will come from China already.

Similarly to I’ve said before - someone could make an EV in the UK that costs less than any ICE car, could do 1000 miles on a single charge, tow a caravan at motorway speeds all day etc and someone would still look for a reason not to buy it

Yes we've seen this all before in the 70's with Japanese motorcycles and cars which were initially and rightly criticized and shunned for poor quality but they soon ended up far better quality than our domestic products. Korean cars had a similar experience.

So it depends on whether the quality of Chinese cars makes them value for money. My only experience of Chinese automotive quality was some time back when a work colleague bought a Chinese motorcycle. It was an utter piece of crap that wasn't worth half the very low price he paid for it because a low price does not necessarily equate to value for money.

I understand Chinese cars have improved just like the Japanese cars did. Time will tell if spares availability and used retail values make them truly value for money. It's definitely a case of being careful as an early adopter.

 

[Will]

Yes we've seen this all before in the 70's with Japanese motorcycles and cars which were initially and rightly criticized and shunned for poor quality but they soon ended up far better quality than our domestic products. Korean cars had a similar experience.

So it depends on whether the quality of Chinese cars makes them value for money. My only experience of Chinese automotive quality was some time back when a work colleague bought a Chinese motorcycle. It was an utter piece of crap that wasn't worth half the very low price he paid for it because a low price does not necessarily equate to value for money.

I understand Chinese cars have improved just like the Japanese cars did. Time will tell if spares availability and used retail values make them truly value for money. It's definitely a case of being careful as an early adopter.

Agree with the above - I think in all honesty people vote with their spending.

I mean if Chinese made cars or anything else for that matter are/were poor value for money, people won’t/wouldn’t buy them. We all have a choice in this regard.

I mean, some people buy the cheapest domestic appliances they can, other people spend several times as much. Same with wine, tech, clothes, furniture etc.

I remember a well respected British loudspeaker manufacturer who were criticised for making their products in China. The response was that to make them in the UK for the same price the quality would not be as good - or if they wanted them to be the same quality, the price would be much higher.

I don’t think it affected sales negatively - if they were no good or represented poor value for money then people wouldn’t buy them.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Agree with the above - I think in all honesty people vote with their spending.

I mean if Chinese made cars or anything else for that matter are/were poor value for money, people won’t/wouldn’t buy them. We all have a choice in this regard.

I mean, some people buy the cheapest domestic appliances they can, other people spend several times as much. Same with wine, tech, clothes, furniture etc.

I remember a well respected British loudspeaker manufacturer who were criticised for making their products in China. The response was that to make them in the UK for the same price the quality would not be as good - or if they wanted them to be the same quality, the price would be much higher.

I don’t think it affected sales negatively - if they were no good or represented poor value for money then people wouldn’t buy them.

I think I posted about it in this thread, however we recently wanted to buy Staffordshire pottery and went to Wedgewood and a few other factories. It’s expensive to buy British crockery, very expensive.

I forget what percentage of Wedgwood sales are from international buyers but it was high, with the majority of those being from China and the Far East - they value the history and quality.

Oddly the British, not so much. British people tend to buy the Wedgewood ranges from Indonesiia (same logo and quality but lower price) and those from the Far East Kay more for British made.

 

[Steveml63]

Chinese cars remind me of cheap market toys we used to buy as kids. They looked OK but broke after a few minutes of play,
Chinese cars look OK - but who knows how they really perform in a serious accident?
I always suspect that they are not made of the same strength and standard of materials as well engineered vehicles from long established legacy manufacturers.
I always suspect they are cheap for a reason!