The EV fact thread

[ALFAitalia]

There are quite a few EV facts....but most get slammed down by the anti EV lot who not only wont ever buy one to worry about and, I suspect, have NEVER driven/lived with one! Which is why I only post in the non argumentative bits!!

 

[Connoisseur]

The EV Fact Thread: 342 pages totally devoid of facts about EVs.

hmmm or lots of facts that some don’t want acknowledge?

 

[SmartAmg]

hmmm or lots of facts that some don’t want acknowledge?

And, vice versa.

 

[Connoisseur]

Autotrader latest on future of the ev market/sales:

Auto Trader forecasts ‘seismic shift’ to electric vehicles in Britain

Number of petrol cars on British roads rose to 18.7m this year, but decrease expected amid growth of EVs

www.theguardian.com

 

[clk320x]

Tesla Model S Hits 310K Miles With Just 12% Battery Degradation - Vehiclesuggest

When it comes to electric cars, a common concern is how long their batteries will last. Many folks worry they’ll need costly replacements sooner rather than later. But here’s a real-life story that might change your mind. In Canada, a 2016 Tesla Model S 90D has been in use as a taxi for over...

www.vehiclesuggest.com

 

[BTB 500]

Tesla Model S Hits 310K Miles With Just 12% Battery Degradation - Vehiclesuggest

When it comes to electric cars, a common concern is how long their batteries will last. Many folks worry they’ll need costly replacements sooner rather than later. But here’s a real-life story that might change your mind. In Canada, a 2016 Tesla Model S 90D has been in use as a taxi for over...

www.vehiclesuggest.com

Very good, but as discussed before finding a car that's managed a lot of miles on the original battery doesn't really prove much. From a quick look at the Teslas currently for sale on Auto Trader (only 2,300 of them, so not really that many) here's another high mileage Model S that did need a new battery 3 years ago (and a new motor):

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Or a Model S on 143k miles that needed a new battery last year:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

A Model S on 102k miles that needed a new battery and rear motor:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

A Model S on 93k miles that's had a "full battery rebuild"

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Or how about a 2019 Model 3 on just 24k miles that needed a new battery in June:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

And yes I'm aware that Teslas can need the HV battery replacing after a minor bump (not just due to degradation or failure), but that's hardly a plus point.

 

[BTB 500]

Interesting video from an EV enthusiast about towing with a Tesla Model Y Long Range. Pulling a Lotus Esprit on a trailer in reasonable weather the actual range was under half what the car showed. One comment was that the car doesn't seem to recalculate range while driving (to reflect current performance) very accurately. Luckily the charging area at Grantham was almost deserted so he was able to park parallel to the kerb across multiple bays - otherwise he'd have needed to unhitch the trailer somewhere first.

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[chic0821]

Statistics can always be massaged to suit your point of view, just ask the Government

 

[BTB 500]

Statistics can always be massaged to suit your point of view, just ask the Government

The point is that aren't any statistics to massage here - no manufacturer provides figures on how many batteries they're replacing, or when. Individual examples of cars that have successfully done a lot of miles on the first battery mean little because there are others around that clearly haven't. The article originally linked actually mentions that the other high mileage Tesla in that taxi fleet had needed a new battery at some point.

 

[FiveAlive]

The EV car industry would be in a much better place if repair of these big-ticket items was better understood and trained for. There really isn't anything clever or difficult about taking out a battery and replacing individual cells, or dismantling a motor to replace the bearings. Yes, there are safety precautions due to the voltages involved but the right equipment and training can deal with that. The industry trend of replace-not-repair seems to be shooting itself in the foot as the individual items being replaced get bigger and more costly with EVs, feeding back to help collapse resale values in a nervous used-car market that is just looking for excuses to avoid them.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Let's just cheer the collapse of ICE and EV values.

Anything that makes motoring more affordable has to be applauded.

Time for three far more interesting threads.

Who's going to buy all these six figure luxury SUV's and absurdly powerful sports cars?
(Range Rovers: between £100 - £200k, Bentaygas: £150-£200k )

Is the collapse in ICE used car prices a reflection of the shortage of trained mechanics and bodywork specialists?

Will the withdrawal of car finance providers hammer new car sales?

Lloyds boss hits out at Court of Appeal finance ruling which has sparked 'investability problem' – Car Dealer Magazine

Investors have been spooked by the ongoing motor finance crisis amid mounting uncertainty in the sector. That is the verdict of Lloyds Bank boss, Charlie

cardealermagazine.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

There really isn't anything clever or difficult about taking out a battery and replacing individual cells, or dismantling a motor to replace the bearings. Yes, there are safety precautions due to the voltages involved but the right equipment and training can deal with that.

I think there's a bit more to it than that.

Some EVs have batteries that can be removed from under the car, but others (typically conversions of ICE models) have 'built in' packs that can only be accessed from inside. Simply moving/handling packs that weigh half a tonne or more isn't trivial. Particularly when impact damage is a known trigger for thermal runaway ...

Replacing individual cells may not be a great idea. The battery would almost certainly have been constructed using identical cells from the same manufacturer and batch. So if some have started failing then it's likely that others won't be far behind, in which case you could be back to square one pretty soon (which is presumably why the Tesla battery 'repair' companies in the US don't appear to give any warranty on their work). Apart from that any new replacement cells would have different characteristics (internal resistance and usable capacity) to the aged ones in the pack. From what I've seen it's generally whole 'modules' (banks of cells complete with management circuitry) that get replaced rather than single cells, but of course that doesn't address the issue that other original modules may need replacing soon.

With underslung packs sealing (to prevent water ingress) is critical. IIRC some manufacturers have got this wrong on their factory assembled units, so there would definitely be equipment & training challenges for aftermarket repairers.

If it was that easy to return failed/damaged battery packs to fully serviceable condition (along with a warranty) then I'm pretty sure car manufacturers would do this (perhaps via an external specialist) rather than replacing the entire pack with a new one ... which AFAIK is what they all do.

 

[zipdip]

Well I am one of the drivers who will not buy a EV,I know somebody who hired a EV in this country he had never driven one before fully charged it said it would do 236 miles given it is very cold I suppose not bad,but he drove around and needed to charge,so used a fast charger at Mc Donalds it still took 45 mins for 93% charge,total cost £53.if I put £53 in my diesel car it would do in excess of 500 miles .

 

[SmartAmg]

Well I am one of the drivers who will not buy a EV,I know somebody who hired a EV in this country he had never driven one before fully charged it said it would do 236 miles given it is very cold I suppose not bad,but he drove around and needed to charge,so used a fast charger at Mc Donalds it still took 45 mins for 93% charge,total cost £53.if I put £53 in my diesel car it would do in excess of 500 miles .

Agree. Using fast chargers can be expensive. Obviously (I you can) home charging is the way to go. Then it's dirt cheap. What diesel is yours?
500 miles for £53 is excellent.
Sounds a bit optimistic though, particularly in winter.

 

[Will]

Well I am one of the drivers who will not buy a EV,I know somebody who hired a EV in this country he had never driven one before fully charged it said it would do 236 miles given it is very cold I suppose not bad,but he drove around and needed to charge,so used a fast charger at Mc Donalds it still took 45 mins for 93% charge,total cost £53.if I put £53 in my diesel car it would do in excess of 500 miles .

It’s interesting as the price of electricity varies so much from free, to as little as 7p per kWh at home, to 80p plus at some public chargers.

It would be like buying 1L oil top ups from a motorway services to do an oil change. Or a weekly shop at a convenience store.

I think for a hire car it is difficult, but I’m pretty sure that a lot of people who run EVs charge at home?

So the real comparison would be, the same level of charge covering 236 miles would maybe cost less than £10 charged at home, and that’s less than half the price of your diesel car comparatively. And although the EV was only showing 236 miles currently, in spring-summer-autumn the range would likely increase, and the range of any ICE car in a congested urban environment would likely drop significantly.

No real right or wrong there, you just need to choose the vehicle that suits your circumstances, or run more than one for the different usage patterns that exist

 

[SmartAmg]

It’s interesting as the price of electricity varies so much from free, to as little as 7p per kWh at home, to 80p plus at some public chargers.

It would be like buying 1L oil top ups from a motorway services to do an oil change. Or a weekly shop at a convenience store.

I think for a hire car it is difficult, but I’m pretty sure that a lot of people who run EVs charge at home?

So the real comparison would be, the same level of charge covering 236 miles would maybe cost less than £10 charged at home, and that’s less than half the price of your diesel car comparatively. And although the EV was only showing 236 miles currently, in spring-summer-autumn the range would likely increase, and the range of any ICE car in a congested urban environment would likely drop significantly.

No real right or wrong there, you just need to choose the vehicle that suits your circumstances, or run more than one for the different usage patterns that exist

Agreed.

 

[BIGDOG]

Well I am one of the drivers who will not buy a EV,I know somebody who hired a EV in this country he had never driven one before fully charged it said it would do 236 miles given it is very cold I suppose not bad,but he drove around and needed to charge,so used a fast charger at Mc Donalds it still took 45 mins for 93% charge,total cost £53.if I put £53 in my diesel car it would do in excess of 500 miles .

I’m a bit more open minded.

I currently have 3 petrol cars on the drive, each for different purposes, clearly at least 1 of them could be electric and almost certainly will be in the future. I’m waiting for prices to settle first.
Having said that, one vehicle isn’t quite doing 8MPG on the journeys that I use it’s for so maybe I should worry less about purchase price!

 

[pioneercollector]

I have my trusty Honda CR-V diesel long trips, My MB SL500 for fun and the EV Van for work ..... Oh and a couple of motorbikes if life gets dull

 

[Connoisseur]

HGV EV infrastructure growth in Europe (ad heavy link) Milence opens its first two charging hubs in Germany

 

[markjay]

Well I am one of the drivers who will not buy a EV,I know somebody who hired a EV in this country he had never driven one before fully charged it said it would do 236 miles given it is very cold I suppose not bad,but he drove around and needed to charge,so used a fast charger at Mc Donalds it still took 45 mins for 93% charge,total cost £53.if I put £53 in my diesel car it would do in excess of 500 miles .

I fully agree that having to interrupt your journey for 45 minutes is a non-starter.

When I drove to Switzerland through France, I used the ABRP EV trip planner app which scheduled the charging stops to 15-20 minutes every two hours or so.

The idea is that you take short breaks and quickly top up to 80%. Unlike with ICE car, you're not meant to drive non-stop until the battery runs dry and then charge it up in one go to the full. Especially since the charging speed is throttled from 80% and upwards to protect the battery. I suppose it will take a while before our old ICE habits will die out.

And, of course, this only works where there are plenty of fast chargers along the major routes, which is the case in France and Switzerland. I guess that it will take a few more years before the UK catches up.

As for electricity cost... it's a mixed bag. Yes, I paid a pretty penny for electricity from public chargers, but then I also paid ££££ for annual servicing and for brakes on my MB, which I'm not paying now. I don't think it's a clear cut case that the cost-per-mile for one type of car (EV or ICE) is cheaper than the other - there are many variables in force, and focusing on just one variable can be misleading.