The EV fact thread

[ALFAitalia]

Zero emissions ICE is here now.

I understand JCB's hydrogen combustion engines (now licensed for production use) are considered to be zero emissions because any NOx produced is too low to be detected or measured. There are no hydrocarbon/CO2/particulate emissions from burning hydrogen of course.

What?....of course there are....and one of them is nasty poisonous, toxic, ULEZ unfriendly NOX !

 

[BTB 500]

I’m happy to wait for someone with some greater knowledge on the specific fractioning process (and I’m certain they’re on this thread!), but I’m sure that 27 Trillion litres of crude oil will not be simply wasted as implied if the UK stopped using 30 million ICE vehicles (just going from rough estimates above)

There was talk of using synthetic fuels earlier in this thread - so if you’re not using the crude (and refining that into gasoline/gasoil) for ICE vehicles, you’d still be wasting the fuel as you suggest and using more energy to create the synthetics anyway.

As above crude will still be used to meet the continued demand for everything else apart from gasoline and diesel. Someone, somewhere must have a 'cunning plan' for what to do with those once they can't be used in road vehicles. Presumably in the short/medium term they'll simply be sold to the other parts of the world that don't have zero emissions legislation.

 

[markjay]

Zero emissions ICE is here now.

I understand JCB's hydrogen combustion engines (now licensed for production use) are considered to be zero emissions because any NOx produced is too low to be detected or measured. There are no hydrocarbon/CO2/particulate emissions from burning hydrogen of course.

It's still ICE, but this is moot point because we both know that we'll never see mass production of road-going cars with this tech. In fact, we will probably not see it anywhere apart from in some pieces of agriculture machinery.

Also, regarding Hydrogen (both Fuelcell and ICE), there's the electricity required to produce it - and pressurise it - what we're saving here compared to BEV is mostly the battery, but not much electricity?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

As above crude will still be used to meet the continued demand for everything else apart from gasoline and diesel. Someone, somewhere must have a 'cunning plan' for what to do with those once they can't be used in road vehicles. Presumably in the short/medium term they'll simply be sold to the other parts of the world that don't have zero emissions legislation.

I suspect a fair amount will still be sold in the UK and Europe, as it’s going to stake many years for demand to fall off significantly.

 

[Will]

I would imagine that if it’s as clear cut as Bill is suggesting (the fractioning process) there will always be some surplus and wastage - it’s inconceivable to think that the amounts of each fraction are always used in total balance with each other - demand does not work like that!

 

[BTB 500]

What?....of course there are....and one of them is nasty poisonous, toxic, ULEZ unfriendly NOX !

Eh? NOx isn't hydrocarbon, CO2 or particulate.

IIRC JCB claimed that the raw exhaust from their hydrogen engine already contains less NOx than EU6 diesel exhaust, and it can be reduced to unmeasurable levels by exhaust treatment.

If it can't be measured then it would presumably qualify as zero emission (because nobody would know if it was there or not!).

 

[BTB 500]

I suspect a fair amount will still be sold in the UK and Europe, as it’s going to stake many years for demand to fall off significantly.

100%

 

[BTB 500]

I would imagine that if it’s as clear cut as Bill is suggesting (the fractioning process) there will always be some surplus and wastage - it’s inconceivable to think that the amounts of each fraction are always used in total balance with each other - demand does not work like that!

There's a global market for oil products though - they are bought and sold for use all around the world. Supply and demand just affects the pricing (and you can make money from buying in one part of the world and selling in another, depending on the tanker market).

Crude oil also comes in many different grades (types) depending on the source. These will give differing yields of the various products so your refinery output will depend on the crude you buy.

 

[BTB 500]

It's still ICE, but this is moot point because we both know that we'll never see mass production of road-going cars with this tech.

Sure. I was just replying to the comment about zero emission ICE being 'just around the corner'.

In fact, we will probably not see it anywhere apart from in some pieces of agriculture machinery.

I think the primary market for JCB is site plant rather than agriculture. They typically don't have mains power and get diesel delivered by tanker so using hydrogen in a similar way isn't a major change.

Also, regarding Hydrogen (both Fuelcell and ICE), there's the electricity required to produce it - and pressurise it - what we're saving here compared to BEV is mostly the battery, but not much electricity?

That's not the point though. If you don't have an electricity supply to a construction site how else can you operate zero emission plant there?

 

[Will]

That's not the point though. If you don't have an electricity supply to a construction site how else can you operate zero emission plant there?

I’m guessing markjay means in terms of as a viable alternative for mass usage to rival ICE road vehicles or EVs in the context of this thread (not for construction machinery which by comparison is a totally different market!)

 

[BTB 500]

I’m guessing markjay means in terms of as a viable alternative for mass usage to rival ICE road vehicles or EVs in the context of this thread (not for construction machinery which by comparison is a totally different market!)

True, but the general point that using the least electricity isn't always possible can also apply to road vehicles. E.g. BEV buses may be the most efficient, but current models aren't suited to some routes (longer and/or hilly ones, particularly in winter). So if they have to be zero emission then hydrogen (fuel cell in this case, rather than combustion) would be the only workable option for now.

 

[Dryce]

Just working on some very rough numbers here.

30 million ICE vehicles, 35mpg
If it takes 4.5 kWh to refine a gallon of petrol
7k miles PA

I make that 27 TWh - just to refine? Not considering all of the associated and indirect losses of getting that fuel to the pump itself.

Happy to be corrected - but just to get the ball rolling. And Bill’s assumptions above were based on 40 million EVs, and I questioned the 10kWh (per day) figure per vehicle as I think it’s significantly too high anyway.

There are times when a topic goes stupid.

And this is happening here.

So we have a digression into filing station energy consumption - which is irelevant.

And now refinery energy consumptrion within the context of UK EV vehicle energy consumption.

Yes refining takes energy,. But consider that (a) refineries are supplied with fuel ath they can then use as the energy source for their refining and (b) the UK imports mainly finished refined fuels.

So this is pretty irrelevant when it comes to the fundamental that the UK needs power generation to support the cumulative consumption of EVs being operated over a total of a given number of billions of miles at some average kWh per mile.

The issue with regard to fuel distribution is that it provides a huge amount of energy for vehicles to support the cumulative consumption of ICEs being operated over a total of a given number of billions of miles at some average kWh per mile.

So you have to be able to generate sufficient power generation capacity to cover the needs of the EVs as they replace ICEs.

This is not proEV or against-EV - it's a simple observation that to support a given mileage being driven by EVs that you need a power supply. You are effectively replacing energy imported in tankers and distributed to filling stations by power generated somehwere by something and delivered to a charging location by cable. The problem is that somewhere is the UK and something is power stations.

This is not complicate to understand.

And yet ....

What worries me is that our policy makers are as blind to the simple fundamentals as is being demonstrated some of those here.